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From Real Vetting:

  1. A vote must constitute an objective judgement of the build's qualities. It must not be biased by sympathy or any other prejudice regarding the author. This applies in particular to votes given by authors themselves or their friends. Votes that deliberately overshoot in favoring or unfavoring a build in order to 'compensate' another vote are not acceptable either.

Seriously, you know this already. Why are you trying to compensate for other people's ratings?

See: Build:E/A_Incendiary_Spiker
Quote: I don't want this is our 'Great' category.

Also see: Build:D/E_Mirror_of_Ice_Scythe And that's just some recent ratings. If you rated properly, maybe Defiant wouldn't have his 'breaking news' be about "Administrators masterminding a fascist plan to create a sham vetting system". Trust the vetting system, crap builds will be rated as crap and great builds as great. Ascscorp 02:17, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

In practice, that is not how it works around here, or on GWiki. Until we have more smart players/users than 'unconditioned' ones, there is little hope for an accurate system that involves voting. Also, if you're going to quote my rating comments, quote them in their entirety; each of those votes elaborates on why the build deserves the rating I gave it. Finally, Ben's rant isn't about this at all; it concerns itself with users who get their builds shot down and conjure up a bunch of wiki-drama about how they got dismissed only because everyone else is elitist and close-minded to new ideas etc etc. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 02:22, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
I understand the practice. However, there are particular policies in place and either they are worth being policies or they should be stricken from PvX. I think you do a good job at noticing sock puppets and knowing a quality build when you see one. But, I think by not following the policy you undermine your work. If we should compensate for what we think is someone's over value of a build (or under value for that matter) than, propose that the policy state "...not encouraged either." instead of (I'll show the full statement again).
"Votes that deliberately overshoot in favoring or unfavoring a build in order to 'compensate' another vote are not acceptable either." To me, the problem is if we compensate, we believe that we know what is the correct rating and everyone else is 'unconditioned'. That begs the question, why let people other than the admins rate the builds? Ascscorp 02:35, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
Because we can. Also, your points are no longer valid, as Krowman is now to revote. Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 02:36, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
You make a good point about the policy. I'll go initiate some discussion over there. The way things are now, we have to break rules to ensure quality on the site, and you're right, this state of affairs should never come into existence. Please don't ignore the other two points of my original post however. Feel free to join in on the policy discussion I'll go start up. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 02:41, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Opps - I lost my edit ><. I'll join in on the discussion. :-) Ascscorp 02:45, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Where is DE's rant? Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 02:58, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
User:Defiant Elements, first section. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 03:01, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
ty =). Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 03:07, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Take a look

At the build, and the ones on the talk page plx =). User:Readem/Team Build: - Rising Bile Spike Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 07:43, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

I like that RB spike. Lots of damage/pressure on a number of foes is good because people usualy run ZB in the arenas, and it can't counter that pressure. The IV spike is better in 8 man groups in my opinion, but if your 4-man isn't too fragile, more power to ya. Might be interesting to fit Fragility somewhere onto the A/Me bar in the condition spike, since you're already specced for it. This could just be a sleepy late-night idea to toy around with though, I know Frag spike died back in early Factions. The SB is my favorite, I'd be concerned about the durability of the other caster-spikes that don't have any of that /Rt support. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 07:57, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

The RB Spike has more durability than the others. However, they are meant for different things. IV and SoDC Spike grps, are meant to roll through teams. 4 minute games, ect. The SB is for longer, more relaxed/controlled games. Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 08:51, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Which one have you had the most success with so far? - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 17:22, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

What's Your Opinion...

On this. No one has rated it yet, and I haven't gotten a lot of substantial feedback, so I'd appreciate it if you could check it out when you got a chance. Thanks in advance. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG *Defiant Elements* +talk 08:48, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Kind of a one-trick pony in my opinion, even if it can strip enchantments. It might see some action in PvE (if you play PvE, obviously take Critical Agility over Bestial Fury). Haven't played GW:EN yet, but I'm thinking it would be more of a region-specific build. You wouldn't want it everywhere (much of Kourna for example, maybe the Dervish's Veil of Thorns/Armor of Sanctity), but some enemies it would be good against are the Afflicted (Aegis), Shiro'ken (Sliver Armor), Titans (Mirage Cloak, Mystic Regen). There are probably some others out there, but off the top of my head, those are some enemies that drive me crazy with their enchantments. In RA, any thing is possible. CM might be good as a turtle interrupter if you're Kurzick. Not sure what kind of team build you would use it in in TA, most 4-man groups I see don't bring much in the way of interrupting/disenchanting. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 17:33, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Opinion on build

I haven't gotten any substantial feedback on my build Build:Team_-_GftE Fortress for a long time. Would you mind paying a little visit? Thanks. User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 17:45, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

MM should be either Tanted Flesh or AoU I think. You can get lots of damage from AoU, or you can spread lots of Disease with TF. Most creatures in PvE aren't the same type as you, so Disease works well there. If you're only bringing one healing spell, I'd suggest Dwayna's Sorrow in combination with Putrid Flesh. You can bomb a minion to deal over 100 damage, -8 degen, and heal your whole party for 30 health or so. DS is great because you can enchant all your minions at once (because they move in a mob), and heal your whole party for let's say 150 health for 5e. Good deal there. If Razah's build is a variant (not used in conjunction with Olias), that's fine, but if they are used together, you might want to make Olias AotL, as he can heal all minions (his & Razah's) at a greatly reduced sacrifice cost. The Morghan builds are a little strange. The attack one uses a bunch of skills (FGJ!, Flail, EH) to fuel adren gain, which fuels energy gain (WY!, GftE!), but then your build does nothing with all the energy it is receiving. Only e-skills are VA and SYG!. Support one looks ok, but drop the 6th & th skills for some spear attacks. Change SH to SoA for Tahlkora, as you can slap it on a tank and have damage reduced to 0. Heroes use SoR pretty well, so that's good. Not sure about the rez; if you bring one at all, it should be Rebirth, in case of a party wipe and you're the last one left alive. Barrage Ranger is pretty tight on energy. Splinter Barrage needs Favorable Winds, less Channeling spells. Warrior looks good, but mobs in PvE don't suffer from e-denial very much, if at all. I'd replace FM!. W/P is unnecessary, he should always have GftE! on him from the Paragon spamming it. Last point: use PvE skills. Signet of Corruption on Necro works great with Disease for damage and energy (allowing more use of bone fiends). There's Nothing to Fear! on the Paragons, it reduces a lot of damage and heals a little bit. Seed of Life on Monk, especially with such high DF. That + SoA on a tank holding aggro means no damae taken and massive party-wide heals. If using a Barrager, put Save Yoursleves! on it; Barrage can charge up a lot of adrenaline quickly. Whirlwind Attack on the tank for more AoE to the guys mobbing him. Youcan bring a nuker, and either have him take Deep Freeze, or put Grasping Earth on the Warrior, and then the mob isn't going anywhere while they get nuked. Like I said to DE, haven't played GW:EN yet, so I couldn't tell you about all their PvE skills, but some of them might be worth looking into. PvE skills were created so that ANet wouldn't have to balance them, so they are usually over-powered. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 18:14, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Summarising everything I've just said, I've made what improvements I can to my hero builds, is there anything else? And by the way, PvE skills can't be used on heroes. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

I'm still iffy about my R/P barrager, my R/Rt barrager, my W/Rt splinterer (Not sure what to change fear me to), my Attack Morgahn and the MM. User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 19:25, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Oh yeah, sorry about that. We don't have a lot of hero-only team builds here, I just fell into the habit. >.< - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 19:36, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Which is why I thought I would contribute one, more particularly a hero TEAM build which seems rare. User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 19:41, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Yeh, so far there's Heroway and little more. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 19:45, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Can you link me to heroway please? User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 19:46, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Build:Team - Tainted Heroway. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 19:48, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Ah, interesting. Thanks. I guess mine so far is the only *full* hero PvE team? User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 19:48, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Probably. I often use Tainters, SoR monks, Interrupters, and RI spammers on heroes, if that helps you write anything. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 19:52, 3 September 2007 (CEST)
Same, except minus the tainter because I don't have taint. Heroes rock at interrupts which is why I used barrage ranger along with disrupting throw. And I'm the RI spammer xP User:Napalm FlameNapalm Flame 20:10, 3 September 2007 (CEST)


would you mind explaining why you voted a zero on Build:D/E Mirror of Ice Scythe. I can see your points, but why a zero? why have a scaled rating system if you are giving out zeroes to builds that clearly are not completely useless. I would expect a more mature vote from you.--Coloneh 01:28, 10 September 2007 (CEST)

I gave it a 0.5, and provided a monstrous explanation behind it. What more were you looking for? - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 07:28, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
A better score. Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 07:31, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
Hmm, I see that you are the author of that build, and hope that you are not taking my rating a little too personally. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 07:44, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
im not taking it personally. i would just like you to notice that we have a rating system from 0-5 for a reason. and your explanation dosnt add up to a 0. maybe a 2.--Coloneh 08:09, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
I do notice we have a 0-5 rating system (I did help create it). Having a scale from 0 to 5 doesn't preclude the use of zeroes in build ratings. They exist for a reason, just like all the numbers above 0. I gave the build a 0.5, not a 0, so if it means that much to you, you may consider yourself 1/4 of the way to convincing me to change my vote. If you want me to change my vote, please provide some solid reasoning for me to do so, not just a trite "We have higher numbers than zero, you know." - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 08:17, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
0.5 dosnt mean any more than 0. innovation is pointless point is that you need to consider that there are actually builds out there that deserve a zero. would you say that build is absolutely and completely useless? isnt that the criteria for a zero? or would you say that is is less effective than the meta? just trying to understand how you might vote if someone posted a build a blank skillbar.--Coloneh 22:56, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
I wouldn't vote. I'd move it to Stubs or delete. A regular user may move it as well, or tag it for deletion by myself or another admin. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 03:22, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
that wasnt my point. my point was what would you do if you had to vote on a build that was really useless?--Coloneh 05:38, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
Why vote? Delete. We don't need useless information here. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 06:17, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
that sounds like abusing your power as a sysop. arent build supposed to be voted into trash before deletion?--Coloneh 07:18, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
PvX:WELL. Your cited example is certainly a candidate. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 07:48, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

Signature help

Hello hello, I was wondering how I applicate a signature? >< Thanks! Btw are you swedish?--Papercut 20:25, 10 September 2007 (CEST)

Sure, just create and edit this page to suit your tastes and GW:SIGN. Then, place {{subst:User:Papercut/Sig}} in the Nickname box on your Preferences panel and check the 'Raw Signatures' link below it. Then, you can sign with four tildes ~~~~, and your signature will be attached to whichever post you just signed. (Sorry, but I'm not Swedish, I'm a Canadian.) - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 03:21, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

Right, thanks ^^ I will certainly try, btw reason why I thought you was swedish was because all your characters first name lookedd alot like swedish words Papercut 22:23, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

Yes, aside from non-English characters, all my toon names are Swedish. GW won't allow me to use the correct characters in their names. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 06:32, 12 September 2007 (CEST)

Build:Team - Dagger Spam Pressure

Thoughts? Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG *Defiant Elements* +talk 06:21, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

Looks ouch powerful. Dagger damage isn't mitigated by PS/SB. VS is armor-ignoring and shells out the kind of party-wide random damage you'd want LoD to recover in larger parties. Makes the Assassins less fragile than sins usually are. Have you tested Entangling Asp with it at all, for situations when the target is out of half-range and you need to put your Snare/DW on him, or just as a long-ranged KD? Necro and Monk look pretty standard. Looks innovative and threatening. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 06:29, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
Actually, my original build for the N/As included Entangling Asp, but, while Asp is very very powerful in general, there are two major problems that are specific to this particular build. First, the build itself it relatively restrictive, you can play around with the skills a little bit, but, in general, most of the skills are pretty much set in stone. The other problem is simply energy management. I found that at times, the additional 13 energy threw off a rather precise energy maintenance regimen. It's a semi-viable variant, but I prefer it without for the reasons I stated. Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG *Defiant Elements* +talk 06:36, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
Hmm, I see. Oh well. Looks interesting anyways. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 06:39, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

PvE HB Monk

A bit of insight on why it got deleted so suddenly ? Edwina Elbert Sandstorm.jpg 12:01, 11 September 2007 (CEST)

It was a duplicated build, as the deletion tag stated. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 17:50, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
Ya nvm my bad Edwina Elbert Sandstorm.jpg 18:50, 11 September 2007 (CEST)
Np. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 18:51, 11 September 2007 (CEST)


Just so you know Frvwfr2 removed your vote from Build:E/any Searing Flames Elementalist because you didnt elaborate. thought you might wanna know.--Coloneh 02:50, 13 September 2007 (CEST)

Thank you, I'll go look/revote. - Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 03:53, 13 September 2007 (CEST)

Being a good sport?

Haha.. I wish I could claim that was my intention. More or less, I just couldn't let that build get stay out there. If a build works, I'll defend it. If an Ele can kill you with a Lightning Hammer/Lightning Orb combo.. it shouldn't stay around. Thanks, though. I know this is a bit off-topic, but perhaps you could take a look at my SP Knockdown build and rate it or just tell me what you think of it. So far, it's yet to encounter something it can't take out, excluding Earth/MR tanks of course, and Beleroth's(sp?) rating and rather unsatisfactory explanation have quite gotten to my nerves. T_T Thanks either way. cedave(contributions_buildpage) 05:06, 13 September 2007 (CEST)

Well, I can give you some feedback right here on this page. To me, it seems you have created a hybrid SPRecall ganker with an AoD sin ganker, and that is at the heart of the problem. Just to get it out of the way. Mark of Instability isn't a good skill. Shock, for example, allows you to KD just as often (maybe not statistically, but realistically), and it is less conditional. By that, I mean you are in control of the KD. This control is absolutely crucial to all good PvP builds; it is one one the fundamental points to consider when creating one. You always want to be in control in PvP. That is why people run Mesmers (control which enchantments your foes have on them), BSurge/Warders (control where your team will fight, and control the spiking opportunities of the enemy), and Water snares (movement control, works both offensively to keep your targets within melee range, and defensively, to allow your team to run away from enemy melee). In PvP, if you can exert control (through pressure, denial, splitting, what have you), then winning is all but assured. Back on subject, MoI is bad because it can be stripped, and provides an oppurtunity for the other team to shut down your combo (removing you from control)
Anyways, on to the other skills. Iron Palm is redundant with MoI, in that they are both KDs, but if you took Shock instead of both of them, you could fit a rez sig onto your bar (essential in RA; no matter how smart you are, you will encounter some dumb people). You could increase your efficiency and effectiveness with Shock, so that's my first suggestion.
Restful Breeze is definitely useful on a ganker-type character, but you must be observant ti the way it is used. When people use RB, it is after they have canceled Shadow Walk/ stopped maintaining AoD/Recall, and are somewhere safe where they can 'rest.' Not that this means /sit and stay still, but you should be using this skill when you are at least out of casting/bow range of the enemy. As it is, your build can teleport you right next to your opponent, but when you start taking damage (which you will, because your armor is inherently low) you have no way to retreat and heal. You are making your naturally fragile state even more so.
Your attack chain is solid, though once you get rid of MoI, it should be re-ordered.
Some visual references of what I would change your build to would be along the lines of (sticking to your 5-skill attack chain idea, though really, you only need 4 and can use the other slot for utility):
Shadow Prison Black Lotus Strike Horns of the Ox Falling Spider Blades of Steel Impale Restful Breeze Recall

Aura of Displacement Golden Phoenix Strike Horns of the Ox Falling Spider Twisting Fangs Signet of Toxic Shock Restful Breeze Optional
You could play around with the GW:EN skills, though there are only a few really worthwhile ones across all professions (Defile Defenses, Pulverizing Smash, Sloth Hunter's, some of the sin ones, a few from other profs etc). Some have potential.
In conclusion, I would rather run an AoD char, as they allow for more survivability when played right. For the build, you are trying to create, what I emphasize the most is that you don't include skills that give the opponent a chance to shut you down (i.e. MoI), take & retain control of the arena, and play like a model sin (be quick & precise, and equally hasty to retreat).
(Btw, these are my AoD bars, though you can often achieve a similar effect with Recall):
Aura of Displacement Golden Phoenix Strike Horns of the Ox Falling Spider Twisting Fangs Shock Death's Charge Resurrection Signet

Aura of Displacement Black Lotus Strike Horns of the Ox Golden Phoenix Strike Twisting Fangs Tiger Stance Shadowy Burden Feigned Neutrality

(variable self-heal)

Aura of Displacement Golden Phoenix Strike Twisting Fangs Disrupting Stab Shadow Refuge Shock Dark Escape Resurrection Signet

- Kowal.jpg Krowman {{sysop}} 05:52, 13 September 2007 (CEST)

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