I think it wont work :) --GodFocused Anger.jpgKamil 20:09, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Explain.--DigitalDigitalfear Sig.jpgFear 20:16, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
I think it just worked :):):):)MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 02:01, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
Thats a lot of Save Yourselves.pr0adam!Spirtbondextendededition.jpg 14:31, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
It's to keep Excluded/Minion from dying. Cuilan 15:56, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
Incase anyone gets stripped, we have time to infuse, reprot, etc. before they explode via nu3kz. Someone care to finish the copypasta? qq MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 16:22, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
How are you going to do 4H?-- Elf-eElf.jpg 17:14, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
I'll write the usage for that in a little. It's pretty simple, though. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 17:21, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Don't think 1 hex remover is enough tbhSharkytalk 22:40, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

O yea I don't really think dark fury is all that needed, think OotV would be a lot betterSharkytalk 23:02, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
If spike damage is better, why are you running dagger chains? :< Life Guardian 03:01, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
Because one dagger chain will kill a skeleton, and one chain used by 4~sins can kill an aatxe in one chain. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 07:00, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
Right, I'll switch OoV back in. I prefer it too, but people would have asked why we weren't maximizing our damage zzzz. One hex removal seems sufficient; only really need it in Plains, and only the ERs need cleaning. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 07:30, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
Be less lazy plox. I was so excited about UWing with this and you went RA. >: --Iggy 's other account 09:14, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

would Technobabble make plains easier?Sharkytalk 05:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

And while Im talking about EotN skills how about FH, IATS(I am the strongest), DT(dodge this), YMLAD Ebon wardsSharkytalk 05:41, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
Only logical ones I would consider spammable enough would be Dodge This! If you want to run a ward, that's fine, though there'll be alot of downtime and you won't notice the difference, as you'll be killing too fast anyway. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 09:11, June 3, 2010 (UTC)


If you are bonded by the E/Mo, does save yourselves reduce that damage further? I dont think it does, so it might not be worth it Zedone2 10:18, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

should've read above ^^ Zedone2 10:19, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
It's another layer of defence. If a Dying Nightmare strips someone, Save Yourselves will give the ER enough leeway to Infuse, prot and rebond. Same for GDW. Also, not much can replace it of any worth. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 11:09, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
How about have one sin bring save yourselves + dc, and put ee on everyone - so you can jump around... it'd make the runs faster and can provide a spike heal if one ER drops by accident -Phil
Thought about it before; we had one sin with DC and AoS to recharge it more often, so they could ball, and spike certain things cleaner (i.e. Keeper of Souls) But was proven ineffective in this setup. You lose alot of DPS when not running Ascan/BuH, for not enough gain. It's not a nuke; it's constant DPS. The Overextending always irritates me, because ERs can't heal Parties like Monks can, we rely on Infuse, and OoV/Blood Bond. With a mixed physical team, it would be different- however we can spare 2 seconds to get to the foe with the damage we're packing.MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 17:22, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Overall, Terrible

UW Physway HM

Where are the pictures? How am I supposed to do this if you don't explain everything for me?--ArrogantArrogant Bastard Sig.jpgBastard 09:25, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

As in, for someone who has no prior knowledge of UW or a whole team? They can learn through trial and error, then. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 09:33, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
Don't see why we couldn't get lots of screens and post a guide... probably a better idea to put it up on guru though.Roarer 16:21, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
Screen of end chest or it doesn't work. And in HARD MODE, it will most definitely never work. Welcome to Clumsiness and Riposte spam. --Risus 02:18, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
Riposte spam? You must be mad. About the mindblades; they have quite low health since the update and go down quickly. Clumsiness doesn't impede speed by that much. I posted screens previously, but as you wish.MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 08:52, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
Screen of Dhuum killed. 2:02 so not our best run, but proof that this works on HM. Roarer 14:50, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Comments on Usage

^Would be nice. If anything can be done differently to improve speed, I'd like to hear your ideas. I imagine you could probably make a split or two for Mountains/Pools and Vale. So yes; comments and questions. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 13:15, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think the split we just discussed would be very useful. For people who weren't there ill post it up here: After chamber/uwg/escort 3Sins and 1 ER head off up to mountains to pop the reaper. During this time, the Necro 2nd ER and 2 Assassins do the Vale quest. After which, everyone teles up to Mountains. Thus saving 5/10 minutes or so.Roarer 16:20, June 3, 2010 (UTC)




is buh really worth it? no one should be below 50% health so its only gonna have at most 1/3 uptime Notorious BW 11:25, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

ERs spamming infuse- you can expect them to be below 50% quite often during a fight. But the uptime in mobs is fine, as it only takes 10 seconds tops to take out a mob. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 12:05, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


Whar iz da hee-ulz? 07:21, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

1/10 --Iggy 's other account 08:55, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
Have a go at answering this yourself. Where are the heals? MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 08:57, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Is it really reasonable to all of 4HW at the Reaper due to update, or are all the PUG ER Infoozers going to explode and cry in an amusing way? 10:54, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Rephrase that, because I didn't quite understand the question. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 14:34, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
I think he means: Is it wise to do the Four Horsemen quest at the reaper due to update (i guess either leech signet or the skeletons), because he thinks pug ER ele's will explode and Q_Q Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk 22:07, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Better than Tweet/Terra/Expway?

The title says it all. Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 13:00, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

That depends on how you get your "kicks". If you like to clear areas as fast as possible, then no. If you like to waste a minimal amount of time and have fun; kick off the shoes, loosen the tie, etc. Then yes. It's alot more fail-safe, too. The only rocky ground for a PUG would be 4Horsemen I think, but I hope I have explained it well enough for them. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 13:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
You trade a little bit of speed for a lot of fun and reliability. (And puggability for that matter)--DigitalDigitalfear Sig.jpgFear 13:15, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Much slower than those but much faster for a PUG if you take time wasted on fails and re-grouping a SC into cinsideration. In other words, this is much more reliable than a SC and hence faster, also moar fun. --Iggy 's other account 14:46, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


Would somebody make a video tut for sins, maybe? :3 Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 16:10, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I'll look into it, you're more than welcome to join us on a run though sometime if you want.Roarer 17:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

So, what's the average time?

And also, are guilds running this? Cause I can't seem to find any PUGs willing to run this Tyrael.png--(Talk) 17:42, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Not many PuGs about running this, but we are trying to raise awareness. Currently our guild runs this with people off the friends list. Average time is about ~1:45 but we're discussing splits etc in the hope of bringing that down.Roarer 17:45, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Vale done in 15 minutes without cons. :O You also have to start a new run, takes 5-10 minutes to set up. No need for cons if taking Glyph of Swiftness on Emos. Btw, Escort is damn hard to do, everybody dies. What am I doing wrong? Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 19:21, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
We prefer to use EoC as not only does it speed the party up, it allows the ER's to take 2 more skills between them. Our usual tactic on Escort is to have everyone wait at the bottom of the stairs bar 1 ER or the OoV (quest taker). When the blades spawn we're able to wipe the 3 groups out with ease before the Souls even get close.Roarer 19:26, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you definitely need Essence, so you can maintain ER without the crutch that is GoS. Make sure no one Over-extends; make the sins spam Ascan to cancel Hex Breaker, then the OoV can get Blood Bond down. Refrain from Infuse spamming *too* often; because you'll be soon targeted by the mindblades. Run back out of aggro range when re-casting ER. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 19:43, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
is there a reason you dont use critical agility specifically?--Relyk talk 21:35, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
You get an extra PvE slot, that is of more damage value. WotA + EoC=33% IAS. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 21:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Also, +20 al is redundant because of bonds.Roarer 21:38, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Escort is still too hard, Clumsiness and Migraine kills all the sins and bam, it's over. Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 09:29, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
Nobody should be dying. Are the ERs actually casting? Mindblades aren't that hard to deal with; other than pulling back to cast Ether and throwing down general protection magic and infuses, there's really no thought involved. 02:29, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
I was also thinking of SoS here, spirits would block the stairs, maybe? Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 09:30, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
We used to use an SoS spammer, but it's not really required; for some people it would be good as a safety net, though. Could make one sin optional. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 11:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
What about a 3rd EMO or an UA monk? >{CaRnyVaL}™ Primal Rage.jpg 17:05, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


could the sins be played by other classes? i dont see any noticeable difference between them and http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build%3AW/A_Enduring_Dagger (with buh! and frenzy instead of flail)Notorious BW 21:43, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

The answer is yes, they can. We regularly take Dervs and Warriors and occasionally the odd Ranger, we prefer Sins due to the high attack speed = more triggers of all the buffs. But any type of physical can be used i suppose.Roarer 21:51, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
how is the sins attack speed any different then the warrior using daggers? Notorious BW 21:56, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
I think he means a generic any/A build roarer--Relyk talk 21:55, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Sure you can take that build, it looks fine. As far as x/a's go, as long as they've got good energy management then I don't see a reason why not.Roarer 21:59, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
ok then shouldnt we add all the any/a builds as variants on the main pg? Notorious BW 22:01, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
No need. Not that you have to have these exact Dagger builds anyway. --Iggy 's other account 22:54, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Everyone has a sin anyways--Relyk talk 22:56, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
I think it should atleast be noted so that people dont think those sin builds are the only viable options Notorious BW 22:58, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
go head and add the note then--Relyk talk 23:10, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
So I can revert it. --Iggy 's other account 23:21, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Orders Variant

Monk primary

Order of the Vampire.jpgBlood Bond.jpgDraw Conditions.jpgBlessed Signet.jpgSmite Hex.jpgRemove Hex.jpgStrength of Honor.jpgOptional.jpg

[[Order of the Vampire@12]
[[Blood Bond@12]
[[Draw Conditions@0]
[[Blessed Signet@4]
[[Smite Hex@16]
[[Remove Hex@0]
[[Strength of Honor@16]

+8 from SoH and only -4 from OoV. Yeah, less healing from blood bond and OoV, but do you really need it? I also remain skeptical over the Necro's energy management, since it has a -1 energy regen, and there sometimes is a fair distance to walk/wait between fights. Dok 00:10, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

That'll work, yeah. 16 smiting, 9 divine and 10 blood?MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 00:13, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, something like that. I don't know how much divine the monk would need; it might not need the full 15 from Blessed. I haven't tested it out. Dok 01:05, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
I was originally thinking 12/12/3. + 4 smiting for casting SoH. +4 for blessed. Though, that wouldn't net the full 15 energy. Dok 02:19, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

this build really needs skillz emo's... and times would be a lot faster if u grab 1 terra to do pools + mnts + pits?

run time

how long is a run with this build?

Sign comments ~~~~ Juze JuzeAvatar.jpg 15:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Monk Variant

I think it would be easier if seed of life as added on one or both of the monks, maybe intstead of spirit bond. Nialiss 16:37, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Note 1: They're elementalists. Note 2: Seed of Life requires Divine Favour to function. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 16:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

How could we get more rezzes?

As I have seen it seems to be the only flaw in this build, completely relying on the OoV for res. I'm not quite sure where you could add some in, but I think it's the most major problem. 22:37, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

I've swapped out one of the Sins for a SoS "lurer/tank" role; to basically redirect Mindblade attention, Dying Nightmares and the like. Flesh Of My Flesh on it, should be enough as the SoS has a wall to hide behind. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 23:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

BrBamingo, Cuilan, and Risus

their votes are WAYYYYYY off.--Bluetapeboy 22:58, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

They expect to switch from Perma to Balanced-ish teams and expect to own UW in Hard Mode with unorganised PUGs? It would initially fail as much as any PUG run would. It's mostly down to the experience of the ERs, and the Physicals have to have No Fear. The more aggressive the physicals, and ability to lure well, the faster and safer it will be. Cuilan just hates everything that's OP. MinionMinion sig k bish.jpgExcluded 23:19, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
Culian's a narb other's are whorus. Funny how you guys dominate this wiki as far as votes on your builds go. ;p --Iggy 's other account 23:22, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
The build is creative but to be honest 2hr ++ runs are not fun at all plus with a high change to fail(mindblades at escort, planes). Pug sins just rush into every red dot they see, and like posted on top it mostly depends on the button mashing of the Ers.My suggestion, instead of a rit or a 5th Sin bring a Sf perma or Sb monk to tank or just ball the aggro for faster kills. Bring wild blow for Sins so behemoths in mnts go down easier. --brbamigo
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