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:If this is PvX wiki's vision of what paraway is, it's no wonder that paragons are so hated and massively underrated in Guild Wars.--[[User:|]] 17:54, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
:If this is PvX wiki's vision of what paraway is, it's no wonder that paragons are so hated and massively underrated in Guild Wars.--[[User:|]] 17:54, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
::Instead of complaining, give us some suggestions to improve the build. Personally, I would never run more than one Paragon in a team, anyway, especially if I'm playing the Imbagon. [[User:St. Michael|<font color="maroon">'''ــмıкε'''</font>]][[User_talk:St. Michael|<font color="orange">'''нaшк'''</font>]] 18:02, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
::Instead of complaining, give us some suggestions to improve the build. Personally, I would never run more than one Paragon in a team, anyway, especially if I'm playing the Imbagon. [[User:St. Michael|<font color="maroon">'''ــмıкε'''</font>]][[User_talk:St. Michael|<font color="orange">'''нaшк'''</font>]] 18:02, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
:::I wouldn't pay attention to Ikimono if I were anybody reading. The IP above (Ikimono) believes this is bad and that [[Build:P/Mo "TPIY!" Infuse-a-Gon|this]] and [[Build:P/W_Hammer_Soldier|this]] are good, which really shows how much he/she knows.
:::Also, just why wouldn't you want more paragons on your team?[[User:Teh Uber Pwnzer|<font color="Black">''' &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer'''</font>]] 18:43, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 22:43, 15 September 2008

From duplicate

Same? Racthoh 16:54, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

I would personally take Spear of Lightning > Swift Javelin. Just maybe put Swift in Variants for areas with heavy blocks. --GoD Sig3.jpgGuildofDeals 07:30, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
Orders, though. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 10:30, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

What is the advantage of using D/N over N/D or N/Any? Zealot 11:44, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, given that six of the skills, 97 of the attribute points, the headpiece, and the rune are all devoted to healing and energy management... -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 12:13, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
Well, I saw the Orders thing, but the damage and recharge is lower. For areas with blockers, I would take Javelin, but otherwise I'd take SoL. --GoD Sig3.jpgGuildofDeals 16:09, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
You don't really get much from using Spear of Lightning; just 6 extra damage+25% armor penetration (which isn't significant in Hard Mode), which is outclassed even by Swift Javelin (because of OoP, of course). Blazing Spear would be fine in place of Swift Javelin (or Vicious Attack, as noted). Spear of Fury would have been one of the best choices, but it isn't worth the loss of one of your other PvE skills. Also, wurs the critical hit for Vicious Attack? The only reliable Deep Wound you've got is Merciless Spear on your Motigon. -Mike 16:49, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
Deep Wound is not needed in PvE, especially when stuff is dying as fast as Vicious Attack can recharge. Merciless Spear is pretty much there in case that extra 100 damage is needed to break a mob; heroes from my experience are quite good with it to boot. If that doesn't work, Stunning Strike will. Pretty much the only reason Swift Javelin and Vicious Attack are on the player's bar is because they are the two fastest recharging non-elemental non-pve 5 energy spear attacks. With all the energy SY returns, mash away.
That bar has a strict focus on keeping SY up as much as possible. No other adrenaline skills, no chants, nothing to stop you from attacking and building adrenaline. The exception to this is EBSHonor. Personally I only cast the ward when Dark Fury is up; it allows me to maintain SY without significant downtime. The bar always functions the same way no matter the circumstance provided you are kept clean of hexes/blind/change targets when blocking. As an example if GftE! was on the bar in place of Swift Javelin to get that Deep Wound, and the party was starting to break the last thing I want to do is take a strike of adrenaline away from SY. Energy on the monk(s) in those situations has probably gotten tight; I don't want to make things harder on the healer by dropping SY even for a second if it can be avoided. As such with the two attack skills I can continue to pump out damage in the same manner despite the party's condition, compared to GftE! + Vicious Attack where GftE! only works against your odds of survival. It becomes a burden in a situation that matters.
Overall that is the purpose of all the builds, and why there are the variants for every situation. Powering SY and maintaining it as much as humanly possible gives you the greatest chance of survival. Miss hexes, reduce attack speed hexes, degen hexes, AKA damage that SY can't prevent, hex variant keeps you clean. Blind (no SY), degen conditions (SY doesn't help), you have Song of Purification. Multiple healers that you can't break with damage alone, Stunning Strike to the rescue. It is a strong hero combination that gives you fallbacks and preventatives in the situations that will actually pose a threat to the party's survival. Racthoh 18:03, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
You forgot to mention that Spear of Fury is bad. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 20:13, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
If you don't need Swift Javelin's unblockable, the +damage is greater. But that only applies if you're not taking EBS. -Shen 20:32, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
D/N's party healing is the main advantage. If you want to take a necro for orders, it'll be using Splinter Weapon and IV or something. -Shen 20:36, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
Armond, I understand your point about avoiding downtime, but when Dark Fury is up, you're able to spam Blazing Spear, "GftE!" and "SY!" without downtime (well, I've got 5 seconds of "SY!"). And if things start to look bad, it's as easy as not using the other adrenal skills or skills with activations (except EBSoH). -Mike 21:21, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
If you don't have to worry about downtime, then of course there's no problem. If things start to look bad, being able to hit for more is better than having useless slots. -Shen 21:26, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
Downtime? I don't care about downtime. I can maintain it with blazing spear (a better skill than vicious attack imo, but it may just as easily have been that I was too lazy to get it on my gon) spam with a 4 second sy, but then I don't use ward. I just don't like wasting a PvE skill on Spear of Fury because the damage doesn't make up for the PvE skill slot loss and the conditional adrenaline gain is useless when you're charging SY in two hits anyway. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 21:43, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
The thing with Spear of Fury was that it could deal 30+ damage (with high enough ranks), more than most Spear Attacks, has a 1 second activation, and could be used after Anthem of Weariness to make up for the downtime, but you will get more from EBSoH. -Mike 07:02, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Also, Spear of Fury doesn't need to hit to give the adrenaline gain, so even against mobs that block, you're able to fully recharge SY at least every 8 seconds, if all your attacks are blocked, unlike Swift Javelin. ScythXIII 09:23, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
If things are blocking, change targets. There's no excuse for not charging SY every two hits. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 10:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
When fighting raptors in GWEN, they all seem to be blocking ._. ... ScythXIII 11:47, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Ctrl-spacebar. Shit dies when seven spears get chucked at it. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 11:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Not saying that things aren't dieing, just that the blocks prevent adrenaline gain = no SY. Killing it would still mean no SY <_< ... ScythXIII 11:51, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
...Because it really matters if you've got SY up if they're dead? -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 11:57, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
True...ScythXIII 12:07, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Mirror of Disenchantment for Raptors, or necromancers over paragons. Racthoh 15:41, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Possible variant for block heavy areas (stances/enchantments)? ScythXIII 18:21, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
Wee.. correct indent ScythXIII 18:22, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Commandgon vs. Motigon + Imbagon

If Imbagon is Imbalanced and Paragon, shortened, and Motigon, Motivation and Paragon, shortened, why is Commandgon, Command and paragon, with just Paragon being shortened? Yes, the names are irrelevant, but something like "Commagon" or "Commgon" would be nice... just to make thing consistent (Abbreviation + gon). Yes, I was bored enough to think about it... ScythXIII 19:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Because those sound just as dumb. IMA KILL YOU WITH MY COMMAS or IMA KILL YOU WITH MY COMMUNICATION --click moar Mafaraxas 20:11, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
That's dirty. >.> Besides, there are different ways of looking at it; each of them have 3 syllables. -Mike 22:27, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
Commagon sounded less awkward (and less laughable) than commandagon did. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 00:05, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
Commandogon--Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpgRELYK ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 21:24, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Did someone say Commando? ــмıкεнaшк 21:31, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Focussed + "FGJ!"

Just an observation from having used this build myself:

Focussed anger lasts for 45 seconds with a 60 second recharge, FGJ lasts for 20 seconds with a 45 second recharge. Point is this, on entering a battle, use FGJ just before focussed anger, you get extra adrenaline gain at the start for faster SY, and by the time focussed anger has run out, FGJ is recharged, allowing you to carry on with the normal chain.

Just to clarify why I bothered to post what most people have already worked out, a guy in my alliance insisted on waiting for FGJ to expire instead of triggering focussed as soon as it recharged because "pvx said not to let them overlap". Please make the instructions either clearer or non-existant, because there are a lot of idiots playing the game, and some of us get the joy of monking for them...

It doesn't matter, but having them overlap does absolutely nothing (because the adrenaline gain is capped at +100%) and using them both at the beginning of a fight does nothing but waste your energy (which is probably already low because you should have just used aggressive refrain). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 21:34, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Eh, just cast AR when you load the area and maintain with TNTF, a hero's Anthem of Flame, or take "Fall Back!" instead of EBSoH/FGJ and alternate that with TNTF (for more breathing room instead of TNTF alone). --click moar Mafaraxas 21:43, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Fall Back is bad, TNTF costs a chunk of energy, anthems take time out of running. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 22:23, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Having to spend 25 energy and 2 seconds at the beginning of every battle is worse, in my opinion. Fall Back isn't good if you need the constant double-adrenaline, but it naturally complements AR in that it refreshes it itself and gets your group between battles quicker, meaning the heroes refreshing your AR for you. Chaining TNTF and Fall Back isn't as bad as you make it to because of Leadership. --click moar Mafaraxas 02:06, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
Maintaining AR with TNTF is much mor easier and energy efficient than casting AR at the start of every battle, not to mention if you're getting the full +6 energy from leadership, you'll still be gaining energy (-15e + 6e + 10e = 1e) ScythXIII 10:59, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Having Focused + "FGJ" on the same bar seems wasteful. If FA's 15sec downtime is causing probs, your team must be no good. P A R A S I T I C 18:05, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Hexbreaker Aria

Is going to be going to be mostly useless due to only 2-3 characters having spells. I suggest that its removed, it basically just lowers that Para's dps. — Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:50, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Frees up the spell casters that do have hex removal to remove them from others, instead of themselves. ScythXIII

10:55, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Since when does anyone else need their hexes removed? (If hexes are serious enough that the melee characters actually need theirs removed and the monk can't keep up, you should be running the hex-heavy build.) -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 17:16, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Also with the hex heavy setup Empathic is a spell therefore two hexes and a condition can be removed from that para, the Orders derv is a spell machine, and EBoH is also a spell therefore removes a hex.(Mr Pink57 17:05, 1 June 2008 (EDT))

Imbagon Attributes

The imbagon has 8 command but no command skills. Shouldn't he take those points and raise both leadership and spear mastery? Deezee 00:05, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

The imbagon has 8+1 command in order to use a shield. Kabu To 00:33, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
Just to elaborate a little, leadership won't improve the build much since the energy is already fine, and a shield is pretty important when you're cruising around with 60 AL. Kabu To 00:43, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
Actually, paragons have a base of 80 AL, and you should always have Centurion's insigs for 90. Even without an insane RC bot, you ought to be able to guarantee yourself about 100 AL at any point in time - which is about half as much as the rest of your team, making you the squishiest member of the party. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 01:07, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
Ah, I forgot about Centurion's. Kabu To 04:14, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
Plus shield, plus shield inscription... Paragons are pretty nuts. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 12:10, 16 June 2008 (EDT)


In 8 man areas I had the problem that the Derwish often got aggro and got killed. So I changed my Derwish from wind- to earth prayers and replaced Watchful Invention, Mystic Healing, Dwayna's Touch and Vow of Piety with Aura of Thorns, Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boon and Signet of Pious Light. It works quite well. The advantages are he stays in the backline, Aura of Thorns help him to escape melees and still excellent selfheal. Partyheal is NOT that good anymore. :(

Party-wide healing is still very important, and even more so when you haven't any devoted tank (+100 armor=no need for usual tank). Also, make sure they've got a staff, and not some caster weapon, because apparently they won't use it properly without one (see Build:D/N_Arcane_Orders_Dervish.) ــмıкεнaшк 17:37, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
The AI is incredibly stupid and chooses most of its actions from its weapon, it seems. For example, AI mesmers won't use backfire if you switch to your shield/spear set - it's pretty awesome to sit there as an assassacaster and tank Empathy, Clumsiness, etc, because you're wielding a spear. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 20:20, 1 July 2008 (EDT)


Could the Imbagon be replaced with another Save Yourself spammer? Such as

Volley Distracting Shot Savage Shot Flail Ebon Battle Standard of Honor "Save Yourselves!" Infuriating Heat Sunspear Rebirth Signet

for non para primaries?--Cursed Condemner 22:22, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Conceivably, but then you're missing out on TNTF. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 09:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Other characters

What do you suggest for people without paragons or that have paras, but not as their main? Rangers can use IH + SY, dervishes SY and so on, but what for example Monk build I can run? Bonder, SY dragon slash (;p) or something like LoD hybrid? — Abedeus User Abedeus Sig.jpg 10:59, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Roll a para, or group with one. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 12:54, 13 July 2008 (EDT)


This is not paraway, it is not all paragons. Paraway is 8+paragons working together. end of discussion.-- 02:52, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Er, so? It's close enough. Do keep in mind zergway involved only four or five SS warriors (the "zergers"). -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 11:17, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Mending Refrain?

Makes a lot of sense in the build ofc, but do heroes use it manually and intelligently, or should it be microed? Also, I've used that orders derv, but I have a very hard time believing it completely replaces a monk, can somebody convince me otherwise? Gabe 22:26, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

They use it pretty well themselves, but I've microed it upon entering an area so I could have it on my whole party. This was before the 15 second duration, however. ــмıкεнaшк 00:33, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, that may be problematic. Also, if mending isn't good why not replace it? Im not sure with what though. And wat about this derv healer? Does it, in fact, heal better/equally as a monk? Gabe 17:14, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Derv healer? I can only see an orders derv, and don't expect it to heal u much tbh as it constantly sacs and needs heals itself.--Sazzy 18:07, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Oh I'm sorry, I meant the orders dervish. It explicitly says on the build page that it replaces a monk, I'd like to know if that is true, because I'm doubting it. Gabe 18:10, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
It and the imbagon that you should be running can replace a monk in most situations, yes. --Mafaraxas (talk) 18:30, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Fair enough, I haven't even tested this build yet. But anything with imbagon is win. So, what about mending? Yes or no? Gabe 18:35, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Well, it's not as good as it was after the many nerfs, but it'll still work fine as long as you have another energy-based shout ("Charge!"/"Fall Back!" or something useless like "We Shall Return!"/"They're on Fire!" that don't need attribute investment) somewhere in the party to alternate with TNTF outside of battle so that it's maintainable. The other option for that slot is Aria of Restoration/Ballad of Restoration, depending on the team and the area. --Mafaraxas (talk) 18:52, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Ya, just take some extra Shouts/Chants (or one with a shorter recharge) or micro your heroes' Shouts/Chants, but I probably wouldn't bother with that myself. XD ــмıкεнaшк 18:54, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Mending lost a single pip of regen from the nerfs. That's... not very fail.
Honestly, I keep mending on my heroes because I can't find anything better to put on instead. It's not like it'll really make a difference, though - I've vanquished areas with mending disabled. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 09:01, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

4 man group

Different build.--Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpgRELYK ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 19:00, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Soldier's Fury buff

I found this to work better after the buff with only heroes/henches, since henchmen seem to fail miserably at tanking and SY tends to put all the aggro on you. The Tactics stances let you block a lot more attacks, and SY can still be maintained with Soldier's Fury. You also get a higher IAS and no Cracked Armor. Since you have shouts on you all the time anyway with the other paragons, it's easier to maintain Soldier's Fury than AR. Aequus 10:56, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Spear Mastery: 10+1+1 Leadership: 11+1 Tactics: 10

Swift Javelin Vicious Attack "Save Yourselves!" "There's Nothing to Fear!" Ebon Battle Standard of Honor Soldier's Defense Shield Stance Soldier's Fury
That build's a little less flexible because you need somewhat higher rank to maintain "SY!" if your Orders Dervish isn't doing his job right (which is common). ــмıкεнaшк 11:04, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
...What? Since when does Melonni not do her job right? And... do bear in mind that the bottom end duration just got buffed a chunk. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 22:33, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
They need to be using a staff, and then they win @ Orders. --71.229 22:59, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
No. They sacc like madmens when being pressured, fail to maintain Dark Fury and so on. Overall they perform better than usual with the build, but that's not saying a lot tbh. Godbox GodlyCompanion-cube.jpg 06:18, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
Huh. I've never noticed a problem, but there's a reason I don't HB. --71.229 06:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
mine has a casters sword and still wins tbh. And since it's pve, don't flag the orders hero in a mob of foes >.< Then she won't be pressured and do her job well. Not like she needs to stand next to u to cast the order şąɀɀƴƿooɧPinkNautical.jpg 07:14, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
Since when is the orders hero supposed to maintain dark fury? -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 08:58, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
dark fury is an order too perhaps? (though not having the order name, the way it works is identical to an order) And it would be stupid tbh to have it on the bar if they're not going to maintain it during the fight. Though point being, they do maintain it. şąɀɀƴƿooɧPinkNautical.jpg 10:16, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
Unless they changed the AI since I left, Melonni's horrible at maintaining both Dark Fury and Order of Pain - because she, like a smart hero, cycles through them both, combining the best of both enchantments. -- Armond WarbladeArmond sig image.png{{sysop}} 20:51, 20 August 2008 (EDT)


I finally mulled over the PvX wiki's version of paraway, and this is flat out terrible. This isn't anywhere near what paraway actually is. This is some random assortment of builds that almost work well together and an Arcane Dervish to give an adrenaline boost and mild healing. There, I've said it, now what?-- 17:52, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

If this is PvX wiki's vision of what paraway is, it's no wonder that paragons are so hated and massively underrated in Guild Wars.-- 17:54, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
Instead of complaining, give us some suggestions to improve the build. Personally, I would never run more than one Paragon in a team, anyway, especially if I'm playing the Imbagon. ــмıкεнaшк 18:02, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
I wouldn't pay attention to Ikimono if I were anybody reading. The IP above (Ikimono) believes this is bad and that this and this are good, which really shows how much he/she knows.
Also, just why wouldn't you want more paragons on your team? — Teh Uber Pwnzer 18:43, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
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