Talk: Team - Shove Spike/Archive

Discussion

Is Death's Retreat necessary? Lift Enchantment can be more useful to remove prots. cKow^Dont 14:46, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Yeah, because on some maps scenery is used to its full potential, and in cases such as the D'Alessio arena, spikes can be easily made from the bridge and the raised centre of the map. In order to get back the warrior would have to run up the slope to the bridge, moving out of range from the monks and unnecessarily exposing him to spikes and ganks, or putting the monks at risk, where the whole team concept is to get in and out as fast as possible, and avoid taking hits.

Though possibly changing disrupting dagger for lift enchantments may work well. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 14:58, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Shove disables all skills. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 15:01, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Hmm you're right. Then one of the Stonesoul Strikes. At least one copy of enchant removal is needed imo.. cKow^Dont 15:03, 1 January 2008 (EST)

The damage is below 60, making it unprottable. It's rly hard to monk against. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 15:16, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Exactly, therefore the only prot against it is prot spirit, SH and SoA, and you can still kill through prot spirit. No ench removal necessary, just have to pick your targets well. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 15:18, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Actually, Protective Spirit is completely useless for protection from this spike. :p

I got tons of ez glad points with this build.. our monk bars were different though. Instead of DH we had an SoD. And a draw on the SoD for the RC. And death's retreat isn't nessecary since the warrior has shadow walk too. Just walk on the bridge BEFORE spiking together. Railin 15:56, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Death's Charge/Retreat is to circumvent interruption, simple thievery and sig of humil, as you cannot use grapple in a shadow walk spike unless you use shadow walk AFTER you have grappled, which requires the warrior running into range rather than shadow stepping. The only thing about running SoD is the energy management and the fact that hexes can still screw you over- however I will still leave it in variants. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Uh, we usually shadowspike with Shove, then walk up close to the next target for a grapple. I don't see why the warrior just doesn't use shadow walk and dash too, that way they can all do it together. Railin 01:05, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Try Shadow Walk spiking if Shove gets disabled. You shadow step back before the knockdown from grapple works. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 04:32, 2 January 2008 (EST)

You shadowspike with Shove. And walk/dash up to the person to grapple. Railin 07:18, 2 January 2008 (EST)

"It's a ~800 damage spike in TA... -Edru" LOLWUT? –Ichigo724 18:06, 1 January 2008 (EST)

The vote was that the spike wasn't very high damage... and it's about 800 damage and DW with 4 people... That's like pre-nerf ritspike numbers. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 18:56, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Nvm, I'm an idiot, I forgot it was *2onKD –Ichigo724 18:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Yes, hence this is one of the most powerful TA spikes there is, as well as one of the fastest, cleanest and hardest to kill. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Everytime you have a good team build that is winning a lot, the streak is ended by this build.- Jak123X 18:53, 1 January 2008 (EST)

I was originally rolled by this twice when fighting Goth, and then I was inspired to further develop and perfect that build. I believe I have came close to achieving that goal, namely the latter. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (EST)

6 votes u can change it to like whatever it is rated--Lucky121 (talk*pvxcontribs) 19:19, 1 January 2008 (EST)

This is the real Gothway, with some minor adjustments. VegaObscura 20:21, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Perhaps the minor adjustments are improvements? So is it a possibility I may see you running my modification someday? ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (EST)

pretty bad build... Faced this in TA a couple of times and the only time my guild lost was the first time because we had no idea what it was. Every time after that, we were able to easily infuse the spike and kill the team. Even if they were trying to spike our monk, balanced stance removes about half the damage, and so follow that with any weak heal and its gg.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Og lo (contribs) .

Can't have been this build, must have been the weaker 'TA Smite Spike' and certainly wasn't against Knights of Perfection or Goth. We both run this build with much more skill, and won't let ourselves get busted by an infuser which you just don't see in TA. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 04:34, 2 January 2008 (EST)

i didn't think that anyone brought infuse in ta...tell me if im wrong tho.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 21:53, 1 January 2008 (EST)

The people runing it were bad if they let themselves get infused (a.k.a not attacking an infuser) — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 22:55, 1 January 2008 (EST)

This build needs nerfing. Too high of a damage that is mostly can't be protected, and just kite and repeat.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.127.165.76 (contribs) .

OMG SOMEONE FOUND A USE FOR SMITING PRAYERS NERF IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VegaObscura 03:02, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Agreed, just because smiting has a use other than for support it shouldn't be nerfed. Also, I'm surprised no-one made this work any sooner, since there was the holy hammer warrior which used smites to a certain degree of effectiveness... ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 04:34, 2 January 2008 (EST)

So you kite for around 30 seconds waiting for your shadow step to be recharged? Watch me work it 05:09, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Or you play it the skilled way and spike more than once every 30 seconds by calling spikes with grapple. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 06:13, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Yes. Even the warrior. He kites doubly hard, because he's so useless without his shadow step. :O --71.208.141.117 05:16, 2 January 2008 (EST)

It was in fact this build with an SoD instead of the convert hexes, we easily took it down with balanced stance on our monk and spirit transfer on our rit. Thing is, one of the spikers was from [eF]. That is why I am saying that this build is bad. Especially since it was very minor pressure that took down this build. Once a single spiker is down, the others have to come close and stand still to rez him, which makes the remaining three very vulnerable. Especially if the RC or WoH was killed. Og lo 06:52, 2 January 2008 (EST)

They were doing it wrong. Also, lol rock-paper-scissors. --71.208.141.117 06:54, 2 January 2008 (EST)

What type of an idiot runs an infuse in TA? --- Ressmonkey (talk) 07:01, 2 January 2008 (EST)

PUGenius. --71.208.141.117 07:02, 2 January 2008 (EST)

First of all, the infuse i was referring to was spirit transfer, second of all they were running it exactly as it says in the usage. This build only works the FIRST TIME. At least learn to bring something against spikes everywhere you go <_< Og lo 07:35, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Maybe if they, I dunno, killed the spirit or something, they'd be able to do it right. But that'd be craziness. And drop the condescending attitude, it isn't helping anything. --71.208.141.117 07:37, 2 January 2008 (EST)

yeah, kill the spirit with a spike build, thats 1 spike gone, wasted against a 15 sec recharge spirit. Og lo 07:40, 2 January 2008 (EST)

800 damage - 160 damage = a successful spike. Send over one monk to kill the spirit. Pretty basic. --71.208.141.117 07:51, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Please read my posts... Damage against a monk with balanced stance gets cut in two and stops the deep wound, even if they are spiking a caster, heard of something called interrupts? An interrupt on shove and the spike is dead, an interrupt on any skill in the spike and thats 100 damage lost... Please understand the mechanics of the game.

Oh, i forgot, one monk coming over to the spirit will get pounded by a hammer. Thats one of the biggest counters of this build, it cant stand basic pressure because it needs so much energy reserved for spikes that it always has to be kiting away. If by somehow, you stopped kiting, its over, gg.

The monks have shadowsteps. Please tell me how exactly you plan to pound on someone you can't pin.

So if the spike won't work on the monk when he's got Balanced Stance up, don't spike him when he's got Balanced Stance up. I can think of plenty of ways to get him to pop it early, and once it's on cooldown he's toast. And no shit, interrupts will screw spikes. So will a timely Infuse. We're back to very basic counters again. And, again, NPA. Perhaps you should read it again. --71.208.141.117 08:01, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Wow! Shadowsteps! Thats only going to get you further away frm your team? Well, all I know is my guild has lost only once to this spike, and that was the first time, good monk and secondary healer = no spike, its as simple as that <_< Og lo 08:07, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Really? Well, golly gee. You should've just told me that little story right from the start. WELL it, boys. --71.208.141.117 08:12, 2 January 2008 (EST)

"pretty bad build... Faced this in TA a couple of times and the only time my guild lost was the first time because we had no idea what it was. Every time after that, we were able to easily infuse the spike and kill the team. Even if they were trying to spike our monk, balanced stance removes about half the damage, and so follow that with any weak heal and its gg.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Og lo (contribs) ." Please read more than 1 line of text before posting Og lo 08:17, 2 January 2008 (EST)

[1]. I've never seen you on here before, I don't know your IGN or guild, a couple of guys I know are good players have said it's great, and you're posting stupid stuff. Even if I didn't have an opinion of the build, I'd say your arguments are worthless and your vote should be removed. tbh. --71.208.141.117 08:24, 2 January 2008 (EST)

First of all, you only have my IGN, you dont have my guild? Ever heard of a pvp character? I just gave you one character's name. I have been active in TA recently, and I have seen this build a number of times, and each time we managed to overcome it, they may have gotten one or two successful spikes in, but other than that we have a near flawless record against this build. Maybe our build is just made to kill it? Maybe not? But I'm just saying every time I have come across this build, i have succesfully won the match. Except the first time I saw it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Og lo (contribs) .

Now you've given me a character name. If you look around, not a whole lot of people's wiki names match their IGNs. And, my original point comes around again, it's a rock-paper-scissors situation when there are two infuses on the field. It's not insurmountable, but your team has a heavy advantage, and rating this build badly because of that is silly. Two infusers on one team is rare even in eight-man PvP. --71.208.141.117 08:38, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Please sign your comments with ~~~~ cKow^Dont 08:42, 2 January 2008 (EST)

I never said i had two infusers, i said we had Balanced stance, which is the most logic thing to take for TA, and we had heavy heals, WoH and Spirit Transfer 83.146.34.222 09:14, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Close enough. And if they can't fake out a Balanced Stance, they need more Vent imo. Also, still rock-paper-scissors situation, silly vote, etc, etc. --71.208.141.117 09:21, 2 January 2008 (EST)

First of all, balanced stance is not the ONLY counter, there is also spirit transfer on the rit, second of all, balanced stance lasts longer than 1 second, and its only when the monk sees the war shadow stepping to him that he activates balanced stance. Anyways, since I've seen this build appear, I have never once seen them attempt to fake a spike, and so, any organized team with a brain can in fact, utterly annihalate this build, anyways, i will refrain from posting here because most of these posts are idiotic or narrow minded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Og lo (contribs) .

PvXwiki:Sign_your_comments, GuildWiki:No_personal_attacks cKow^Dont 10:59, 2 January 2008 (EST)

I notice you assume the team running the build doesn't have a brain. Also, still rock-paper-scissors situation, silly vote, etc, etc. --71.208.141.117 11:04, 2 January 2008 (EST)

If you've never seen anyone using this try to fake a spike, then you've clearly never seen anyone that doesn't suck run it, so you can't accurately comment on the efficacy of the build, now can you? --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 13:36, 2 January 2008 (EST)

lolol my ra team went into ta and beat this, caught all the spikes:P glimmer of light ftw —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.106.201.158 (contribs) .

You get this mixed up with the shit, weak, 500-600 damage build known as 'TA Smite Spike', whereas this is KNIGHTWAY. Knightway is nigh on impossible to out-prot, and TOTALLY DOWNRIGHT DAMN IMPOSSIBLE to outheal unless you run a 4 man team with uber heals. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 15:17, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Only, you know, glimmer doesn't outheal the spike. –Ichigo724 15:07, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Supportive Spirit has finnaly found a use,huzzah! Gilkong 16:39, 2 January 2008 (EST)

No wai, "Brace Yourself!" counterspike iz better. cKow^Dont 18:23, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Supportive spirit wouldn't be enough to stop the spike, and brace yourself would be easy to bypass- change spike target. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 18:42, 2 January 2008 (EST)

use the underused balthazars pendulum! :D ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 18:57, 2 January 2008 (EST)

455+hp healing isn't enough to stop the spike? :/ –Ichigo724 19:08, 2 January 2008 (EST)

You forget that they would have to put up supportive in between the spike skills, meaning you'd only catch crushing blow and 6 of the smites, and that is still not a huge amount. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 19:44, 2 January 2008 (EST)

You put all your faith in this, you have your mind fixed on it. You just can't admit that its too easy to counter? Really... Another 7 of these builds seen today, not a single loss, want to know why? Because its just so easy to counter! Og lo 19:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)

A. You play against tards. B. You bullshit. C. It's ROCK FUCKING PAPER FUCKING SCISSORS AGAIN. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 19:57, 2 January 2008 (EST)

D. You don't get jokes. SUPPORTIVE. SPIRIT. LOL. Lighten up, would you?–Ichigo724 20:01, 2 January 2008 (EST)

INTERNET SRS BUSINESS ECT — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 20:04, 2 January 2008 (EST)

tbh, i don't think og lo is bullshitting. in the build he runs, (mo/w balanced and an off spirit transfer) i don't see how you get any kills. you spike the monk, either he doesn't get KD'd b/c of balanced, or he does, and the spike takes so long that its easy to pump out a spirit transfer and a mend body and soul/spirit light right after that. if you spike the rit (or n/rt idk) he just gets healed, same as if you spiked anyone else. I seriously see way to many counters for this to be effective, any team with an off-monk heal won't get spiked out. also doesn't seem very durable tbh, 2/3 of your elites are conditional (probably just divert actually) and you have like 3 healing skills, a rof and a sb. i don't see the imba-ness here, sorry.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 20:17, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Cheese, it's a 950 damage spike. One goddamn heal won't save anything from that. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:27, 2 January 2008 (EST)

950 damage spike over what, 3 seconds? anyone could easily pump out 2 heals in that time, and possibly 3, depending on the cast times.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 20:28, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Efficiency?

This boasts a nearly assured spike, and win, given enough time. But as Skakid points out, it's not an efficient spike. My question is, should teams such as these be rated on this criteria? Shen(contribs) 20:13, 2 January 2008 (EST)

clunky and in-efficient imo. they should be rated by that criteria, if it applies, which it does here.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 20:18, 2 January 2008 (EST)

We have greatly cut the clunkiness by allowing for 2 or 3 spikes in the normal timeframe of 1. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:26, 2 January 2008 (EST)

The point with this build is that they kite untill spikes go through, someone makes a mistake. With the 3 monk backline they can survive damn long. - Unexist 05:44, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Shit's gettin' serious, gaiz. Balanced Stance + 2 power heals = rock-paper-scissors situation. It's possible to win (warrior shadowsteps to monk, monk pops BS, warrior beats on monk until BS expires, monk#3 pops the spirit, warrior and monks #1&2 pop the monk), but it takes approximately one metric assload of coordination to do it. How many teams run Balanced Stance and two power heals, anyway? Not a whole lot. Therefore, rock-paper-scissors. Also, we need a goddamn contraction for that phrase. --71.229@home

/agree. Also, r-p-s, duh. Lord Belar 20:44, 2 January 2008 (EST)

no u. ): --71.229@home

What I was hoping was that this would remain cemented in great for the fact that whenever I run it it is extremely difficult to counter my team- however as I have came to realise, most teams lack the co-ordination, leadership skills and general leetness I possess. Therefore this will not become meta, it will not get used by 1 in 10 teams or more, and therefore dual ESurge mesmers in TA will not become a meta. Sad days. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 21:32, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Napalm, this is lameway, that's the reason it's not run. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 21:35, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Lameway is fun and gud. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 21:51, 2 January 2008 (EST)

I lol'd at your "overall leetness" part.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 00:28, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Change

Is anyone apposed if I changed the skill bar for the Warrior to <pvxbig> [build prof=W/A name="Shove Warrior" Tactics=12+1+1 HammerMastery=12+1 Shadow=3][Shove][Crushing Blow][Grapple][Disrupting Dagger][Shadow Walk][Optional][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig> while playing this in TA as the Warrior, I found that it's a lot simpler to just hit Dash than Retreat to an ally who is already most likely out of range. One time I even got stuck behind a spirit wall when we all Death Charged in. I found that Shadow Walk just makes it a lot easier and more effective overall. Also, as a side note, Grapple doesn't seem to have any real use here. The enemys tend to not be stupid enough in TA to stay back for that long for the spike to kill them at all. Also, by the time you get up from Grapple, you don't have enough time to hit Crushing Blow to help you your teamates. Any thoughts or oppositions to the above build change? — ク Eloc 貢 06:01, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I'd probably use shadow walk instead of death's retreat/charge too, honestly. In favor. Pluto 06:20, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Go go Lift Enchant! cKow^Dont 07:40, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Lift ench rly isnt needed. I ran this, and it does beat teams, but its very slow and can run into a few problems. The backline isn't as strong as it looks (not enough DF + prots on each bar due to the spike skills) but it does work. But definately not brilliantly. - Rawrawr 07:46, 3 January 2008 (EST)

This build needs a nerf. playign against in TA as a monk is impossible, low packets of damage mean spirit bond is useless, and the only skill with a low enough cast time is rof to counter it. It is incredibly frustrating to watch WoH cast as your teamate is dying. <<but that was a spike perpetrated by people who i had seen in TA, all were req >3's. Regardless, a simple change to make holy/stone +damage instead of 2 packets would make this suck. 09:38, 3 January 2008 (EST)

no iz ez =\ - Rawrawr 09:40, 3 January 2008 (EST)

you play against it as monk? 09:40, 3 January 2008 (EST)

they spike once every 30s, just snare one and rape his ass before they can kite off into the distance. - Rawrawr 09:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)

*waits for ta meta that has effective snaring*. And hammer bash doesnt count. Running a standard TA balanced, or thumpergay, the onyl way to easily stop it is to have the magebane be spiked and he just c>magebanes the shove. 09:44, 3 January 2008 (EST)

standard balance is srsly > this. Magebane is gg. Thumpergay outpressures in 0.000111 seconds if they can catch up (hai2rao!!!) - Rawrawr 10:07, 3 January 2008 (EST)

As I said, don't always spike monk is they have balanced. With this I've rolled balance. Magebane and EDA is a bitch, but can be beaten. If RaO is gonna pressure you, grapple spike his ass and get it over with. Either way, there are ways to beat everything, even dual Mesmer teams. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 10:37, 3 January 2008 (EST)

This has seen a lot of recent popularity. Last night, my team fought this 3 times in a row. We added Aura of Stability to our monk and easily beat them. The warrior has to supply a KD for the spike to be effective. We ran around and let them follow us. The warrior would close in on his target and our monk would slap an Aura on him, preventing the KD. The rest of use spiked down someone. Worked nicely. We were on Vent, so we could coordinate the Aura better. "Can't Touch This" would also be a good counter. --Griffin 15:39, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Not really, Can't Touch This affects only the shouter, can't prot others. (and the warrior activates Shove x times so it's gone) ĐONT*TALK 15:47, 3 January 2008 (EST)

TBH i would just find it lame to fight vs a team like this, 3 monks who can all 3 heal quite a bit >.> but thats just me:p. imo a good build = not lame build :P -- Close Impact

Back to topic, no one is against me changing Death's Charge/Death's Retreat to Shadow Walk? — ク Eloc 貢 18:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)

No. Lord Belar 18:17, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I find it stupid yet amusing that people are saying that the spike is A. predictable and B. slow. It's 3 seconds to guarantee a kill every 10-20 seconds or so, and it's difficult to prot against if done properly. Why do you think it is increasing in popularity? Because people see the builds, try them and realise that it is a lot more powerful than people on here say. The whole point is just running it properly, and very few teams do. I just happen to be one of the team leaders that runs the build to the full. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 20:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I find it stupid yet amusing that... ... ................ QQ. –Ichigo724 20:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)

qft - Rawrawr 20:58, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Would it be better to change WoC on the WoH monk to Sig of Reju? --Link4all 21:18, 3 January 2008 (EST)

When most of the time you're RUNNING THE FUCK AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY doing nothing, hmm... no. –Ichigo724 21:22, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I realize it won't help you much, but it's less likely to be interrupted and gets through e-denial. WoC isn't doing much there at all either. --Link4all 21:27, 3 January 2008 (EST)

CASTIG SIGNET LOLOLOLO –Ichigo724 21:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)

ignore my lack of sanity today –Ichigo724 21:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Link

Moar discussion in case you didn't see already. Misfate 21:53, 3 January 2008 (EST)

"but yes its annoying having to change your build to counter" Lol, QQ moar. Lord Belar 23:43, 3 January 2008 (EST)

lol epic, all like oh no wut we gotta do! ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 23:45, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Oh noes, we gotta change one fucking skill!!!1!11!! Lord Belar 23:47, 3 January 2008 (EST)

but i dun wanna change the skill!!!11!! ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 23:48, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I no! QQ until we get a nerf!!1! Lord Belar 23:49, 3 January 2008 (EST)

ya so we dont need to change da bar! ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 23:50, 3 January 2008 (EST)

INDENTS ARE FOR WEAKLINGS. –Ichigo724 23:51, 3 January 2008 (EST)

lol run 4 echo blackout and they cant do anything ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 23:53, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I lol'd that guru hate my build. =D ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 10:16, 4 January 2008 (EST)

this guy loves your build ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 10:19, 4 January 2008 (EST)

I lol'd. Hard. My guild have made a HA version of this, it raeps faec. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 10:25, 4 January 2008 (EST)

also Leave is as charge/retreat, I made it like that for a reason. If you get sig of humil'd, with shadow walk it's GEWD FUCKIN GAEM! With this it isn't, as grapple still works. =D u wont be able to add DW when using grapple ^^ ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 10:50, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Yeah, but what would you rather, being able to spike still with lesser capability due to lack of DW, or not being able to spike at all? =D ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 10:59, 4 January 2008 (EST)

well, if you can never apply DW you will never kill :p ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 11:03, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Even without DW there's plenty of damage to frag. –Ichigo724 12:08, 4 January 2008 (EST)

What happens if you use grapple with shadow walk? Wouldn't you get returned to you previous location, and then kd'd? Lord Belar 14:00, 4 January 2008 (EST)

KD doesn't go through I don't think. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 16:59, 4 January 2008 (EST)

It does, but you can't DW that way. –Ichigo724 20:41, 4 January 2008 (EST)

I never understood what you meant about having to run to the guy to grapple him. If you Shadow Walk -> Grapple, the guy does get KD and does take full damage from the monk smites. You aren't able to apply deep wound this way. If you Death's Charge in and then use grapple, you remain in place but you are knocked down, and as such you still can't apply deep wound. I really don't see what the difference is. The damage is entirely the same, not a bit different, and you still warp in, spike, warp out. I could understand if the build had Aura of Stability in it to keep your warrior from being knocked down so he could still deep wound, but that is not the case. VegaObscura 01:00, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Revert

[2], then just wait until Signet of Humility goes away or just Dash in or something. It was decided that it would be changed. "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." — ク Eloc 貢 19:37, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Tbh I don't see who supported it. I oppose it. Therefore I'll change back tbh. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 21:37, 4 January 2008 (EST)

shadow walk is better, free's up a slot for another skill (protectors strike) to add on after the crushing on normal shove spikes, and you won't be under the effect of shadow walk during grapple spikes anyways (the "standing spikes"), so it makes no difference there, and the 2 charges are just clunky, and easier interrupted/stolen/etc.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 13:57, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Yeah, it may be clunky, but if you think about it sig of humil kills the build. If it can't spike it can't survive. Also, this build is being run quite commonly, along with 4 monk variants. But w/e, change it to shadow walk now. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 17:51, 5 January 2008 (EST)

I'm quite chuffed that this build has gotten as much fame as it has, it's nice to roll teams running this build with RaO thumpers and spearchuckers, or a debilitating shot ranger. Also rather amusing that since it's surge in popularity more and more people are finding counters. Maybe I'll start a new meta called counterway... =D ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 18:19, 5 January 2008 (EST)

This is the only build I have ever seen that has ratings of 0,1,2,3,4, and 5 for all of innovation, effectiveness, and universality. --- Ressmonkey (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Some difference of opinion here, or had you noticed? :P Lord Belar 18:51, 5 January 2008 (EST)

And now gcardinal has spoken. Armond had better lay off now. --- Ressmonkey (talk) 19:03, 5 January 2008 (EST)

anyway, goes back to "other" nao?--Shadowsin 20:43, 5 January 2008 (EST)

This isn't unfavored anymore

But it has been protected, so we need an admin to change it. Lord Belar 22:55, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Ya, whys is unfavored? It works fine. — ク Eloc 貢 23:07, 5 January 2008 (EST)

It's not. Lord Belar 23:10, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Well why was it ever moved to unfavored? — ク Eloc 貢 23:14, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Armond falsely removed a bunch of high votes, cardinal got pissed and added them back. Lord Belar 23:15, 5 January 2008 (EST)

"Armond correctly removed a bunch of high votes, cardinal got pissed and added them back." fixed.Bob fregman 23:43, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Yes, he did it correctly for the intrests of the wiki. - Rawrawr 23:48, 5 January 2008 (EST)

When a build is dependant on one skill in an interupt heavy meta, that one skill better have a 1/4 cast or better, or recharge in about 2 seconds, otherwise the build just isnt gonna work.Bob fregman 23:50, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Armond makes a perfect point when he says 'a build which doesn't work against good teams ever shouldn't be favored, just because its good at rolling bad people.' (along those lines anyway) - Rawrawr 23:51, 5 January 2008 (EST)

I agree, i beleive this point was established a while ago in discussion of the BM policy page.Bob fregman 23:52, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Shove is a 3/4 cast time. Pretty hard to interupt. Also, an interupter will generally interupt the first skill they see them use, which will be Shadow Step, so the interupt is then wasted. If they wait to see specifically shove, then by the time their mind clues in, it's already happened. Also, if Shove is interupted, use Grapple. — ク Eloc 貢 00:10, 6 January 2008 (EST)

By your logic, they would try to interrupt the Shadow Step, fail, hit Shove instead, and you have no spike. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 00:15, 6 January 2008 (EST)

yeah eloc, please use your brain. If they try to interupt a stance it will fail and they will hit shove. In addition, idk what kind of interupters you party with, but i hope they dont just interupt only the first skill that they see used.Bob fregman 00:21, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Eloc, after the first time the spike goes through, if they didn't already know what they were facing (how2do?), they'd go for interrupting shove. Good interrupters don't just hit the first thing they see - they watch the skill icons and hit what's important. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 00:28, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Rapta, it's a spell, not a stance. Armond, with a 3/4 activation time, it's hard to watch the skill icon then see that it's a shove and your brain sending out a message fast enough to realise that it's Shove then use the skill to interupt. — ク Eloc 貢 00:33, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Sorry, i thought he used shadow walk. However my point still stands, after the spike is pulled off the first time, the interupter will know to watch for shove, and then it's history. Bob fregman 00:35, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Eloc, are you top 750? You watch for the little elite trim. Or the warrior colors. Or both. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 00:48, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Or you use your brain beforehand and watch when he uses the death's charge, wait half a second, then fire dshot. –Ichigo724 00:51, 6 January 2008 (EST)

I was in top 700 for HB before I got extremely bored of it ;P — ク Eloc 貢 02:00, 6 January 2008 (EST)

And when was this tagged for HB? :P -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 02:15, 6 January 2008 (EST)

When was this tagged for GvG? :P — ク Eloc 貢 03:03, 6 January 2008 (EST)

GvG skills and TA skills are pretty similar. If you excel in one, you're quite likely to do well in the other. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 03:45, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Well, at least more so than HA skills translate to GvG skills. And yeah, if the ranger isn't really, really, damn terrible, the spike isn't that hard to interrupt. Like ichigo said, if the ranger sees a warrior use death's charge in this build, he can probably assume shove is coming right after. Even if he misses shove for some reason--maybe he's using a flatbow or something?--He'd probably still get crushing blow, which means the spike has no deep wound and is probably very catchable, unless the guy getting spiked is DPed already or is dumb and runs sup runes. This build PWNS my RA teams though, when we decide to keep going in TA; not going to lie. Pluto 04:17, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Maybe it's just me, but every time I get a TA jump, we fail within two matches. :P -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 04:31, 6 January 2008 (EST)

I've gotten to nineteen twice. Both times someone threw up a Vent server in team chat. --71.229 04:36, 6 January 2008 (EST)

I never said that Death's Charge was a stance. Of course, it being a Spell and not a Stance only increases the chance of Shove being interrupted. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 00:09, 10 January 2008 (EST)

Side note on counterting these

GWW:Angelic Protection would probably be a good counter to this, right? — ク Eloc 貢 03:09, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Looks like it. Two or three seconds of the spike means the guy only takes about 200-300 damage on a decent spec, but the problem is no one runs it. Although, if this gets popular enough, people might (though that restricts them to bringing a paragon primary in the team - bad idea for TA). -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 03:44, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Or they could just run aura of stability on their bsurge or rit or nec(not uncommon, from what I've heard from my TAing friends). gg, you just won the match. Maintain aura on monk. They can't do anything. They've got no enchant removal so they can never spike your monk, and if your monk can't catch the spike, what with the monks having to wait for shove to hit to use the strikes(they do, or else you're going to have them hitting too early with the strikes and the spike will do horribly low damage, since if they use the strikes when the warrior begins to spike, they'll hit while he's casting shove(1/4c dc > 0c shadow walk)), your monk is horribly bad. It's not like this is riftspike or sb/ri. Those spikes could do fine even though they were usually or always slow(SB/RI could be played as a normal casterspike with all the damage in a very brief time), because their damage either couldn't be easily or effectively countered(sb/ri) or they could prevent the counters(riftspike). One skill on your midline that's worth bringing anyway and you beat this. — Edru/QQ 13:03, 6 January 2008 (EST)

We run it on the magebane, along with purge for migayne stacks. - Rawrawr 13:09, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Why this build sucks

For those of you too clueless to get it

• 30 second spike cooldown
• You can cast WoH twice in the span it takes to do this "spike" (5 seconds).
• It's a 5 second spike!
• A single skill counters this build entirely. A commonly bought one too.

And there you have it. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş 14:32, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Actually, You'll find that 3/4+3/4 aftercast x 2 = 3 seconds. Math is fun, eh? VegaObscura 17:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

yarly. Regardless, it's way too long a spike. The only ones that come to mind as being so long are sb/ri and blood drinker/angorodon's, and this has the benefits of neither. sb/ri did an absolute crapload of damage, and 8-man blood/angoro is just... unstoppable. Double infuse and gift of health doesn't stop it. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 17:43, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Also, you forgot the 3/4 second for shove, plus the 1/4 second for charge, plus aftercast on charge. Five seconds. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 19:27, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Shadowsteps don't have aftercast. The spike still takes forever. SB/RI also had the advantage of doing more damage if you tried to prot it(not to mention almost all prot being useless against it). — Edru/QQ 20:12, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Also you don't even have to wait until shove finishes to start using your smites. On the contrary, that would be a waste of time. You do it just an instant after shove starts, so that your smites land just an instant after shove does. And as such, there is no aftercast from shove either. Not to mention you tried to use the same point twice. First you said its bad because its a 5 second spike because you could get excessive heals in that time, then you said its bad because its a 5 second spike. And that isn't even true. If you really believe it is a 5 second spike, I can see why you think its bad. But the reality is you're just trying to make it sound bad by making up things that aren't true, and by saying the same thing more than once to try and sway people's judgment so they don't use it to beat you. VegaObscura 01:08, 7 January 2008 (EST)

Or you could realize that he's making two separate but similar points, specifically being that it's an easy-to-heal spike and the spike takes forever. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 21:53, 7 January 2008 (EST)

Here's the thing: balanced rolls faster. There's no point in running this, which makes for slow as hell matches, unless you suck too much to run balanced properly. –Ichigo724 22:00, 7 January 2008 (EST)

@ Dannyb44

This team build now has 1 prot, guardian. What do you do if one of your monks gets snared and ganged? The build just got a lot worse imo. Railin 13:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Also, 5 second dark escape isn't worth it imo. Railin 13:56, 8 January 2008 (EST)

You use it for anti-spike. The problems start when the other guys can spike faster than once every half a minute or so. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 14:09, 8 January 2008 (EST)

anti spike isnt needed in TA, spikes arent strong enough to kill normally, and preprotting fucking wins. - Rawrawr 14:34, 8 January 2008 (EST)

The reason Goth added this was in case we fight a near-clone of ourselves. Us against us-Dark Escape, guess who's going to win. Spike recharges in 30 seconds. Dark Escape recharges in 30 seconds. Aside from that reason, another prot would probably work better. But when you're running one of these (and doing it right, as in knowing how to play it) another one of these is one of the biggest threats out there. VegaObscura 19:31, 8 January 2008 (EST)

It just killed the build there. He made it for the worse. — ク Eloc 貢 23:58, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Um, no? -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 02:23, 10 January 2008 (EST)

By removing a Monk skill, they are then 33% less effecient at what they do. — ク Eloc 貢 21:36, 10 January 2008 (EST)

And how exactly do you figure that? -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 00:54, 11 January 2008 (EST)

I think he was saying that they had 3 healing/prot skills each, then lost one, so going to 2. they lose 1 of 3, so 33%. I'm not agreeing with him (i think DE helps more) but how i think he got to that conclusion.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 00:59, 11 January 2008 (EST)

That's flawed logic. That assumes that all three healing skills are equally efficient, and that you're not removing one that's near-worthless and replacing it with something good. It also assumes that the eighth skill does absolutely nothing. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 02:04, 11 January 2008 (EST)

i agree fully.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 21:12, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Archive

Once builds are submitted, are authors allowed to auto-archive just b/c they are authors? In addition, this hovered around trash and acceptable and never really established itself. does it deserve an archive?Bob fregman 19:15, 14 January 2008 (EST)

As far as authors auto-archiving... I'm inclined to say no. As far as whether or not this deserves to be archived, the measure should be essentially: "Did it work at one time?" If yes, then, "Does it work now?" If no, then archive. *Defiant Elements* +talk 19:17, 14 January 2008 (EST)

Whether or not it worked at some point is debatable. Off-monk AoS owns this pretty badly. Whether or not it works now is probably a no, as off-monk AoS is in everything, and it's a very predictable dshot once you see a W/A and three Mo/As. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 20:06, 14 January 2008 (EST)

It doesn't work now, but before the counters started popping up (a couple of days after this hit the wiki, probably even the same day) it worked. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 17:34, 15 January 2008 (EST)

Perhaps i'm wrong, but it seems to me that this build was trash, then was acceptable, then was going to trash again and then the author archived it. I think it should be deleted.Bob fregman 18:44, 15 January 2008 (EST)

If it does get deleted instead of archived, people will just keep reposting it everytime they see [Goth] dominating TA with it. Even just today I ran with a pug group and, after losing a couple of times while people were getting the feel of it, we went on a 20 win streak before someone had to leave. Leave it archived so it doesn't keep getting reposted. VegaObscura 20:14, 15 January 2008 (EST)

Wtf? Users shouldn't be allowed to archive it at their own request just because they submitted it. If it is being archived because it "apparently no long works", then put that as the reason. — ク Eloc 貢 22:35, 16 January 2008 (EST)

Do you honestly think people wouldn't complain if that happened? This way, there's only one complaint so far. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 01:43, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Also, there's the fact that the build worked until someone decided to bloody well kill it and give the Monks only 2 skills to work with. The build did work, still works now, but is not as effective as before. Though the recent magebane nerf doesn't do it any harm... ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 19:46, 18 January 2008 (EST)

11 consecs with this just now, got SS proof of 10 consecs, then we got rolled by a grasping team with knockdown spamming and hexpressure. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 14:12, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Goth gets 30+ wins pretty much every day with this. I have a screenshot of 30 from 3 days ago. We went to 35 today with 2 members and 2 friends then someone had to leave so we just resigned the last one. VegaObscura 23:46, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Message me ingame sometime, character name is Napalm Ish Kikass. Would like to catch you on one of your streaks ;) ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 04:43, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Unarchive and restore

Some of the main counters to the build have been nerfed- these include fear me (though esurge, eburn, debil and other energy losses still hurt a little), magebane and warmongers (still hurts a little, though this rolls most balanced), and most importantly, the double nerf of aura of stability. The build still works with good tactics and calling, but requires a brain and skill to survive. The old bars with shadow walk and 3 monk skills were more popular. Vote to remove old votes and put in testing? ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 09:51, 24 January 2008 (EST)

meh, it's still very slow, and very easily countered. Magebane was barely nerfed, and despite duration nerfs, aos will still be around. I just dont like a spike that requires 1 interruptable skill(preceeded by another skill for max obviousness) with a long ass recharge to work. Bob fregman 09:59, 24 January 2008 (EST)

If you think it is easily interupted, take a look at this screenshot:

That's from approximately one week ago, even before the small nerf to Magebane Shot. If you think we didn't run across a single decent interrupter across 30 wins, you need to stop kidding yourself. VegaObscura 15:25, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Impressive. If you did run into good interrupters then, what did you do when shove got interrupted.Bob fregman 15:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)

prob grapple ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 15:30, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Based on that screenshot and nothing in the way of TA experience, I think this build needs a vote wipe. --71.229 15:31, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Well first, Shove has such a quick casting time it is BARELY interruptible by a ranger, and if one is good enough to hit it every time, I will warp in a second or so early, stand there for a moment (or if the target is running, run in the same direction as it) and once the interrupt has gone off, hit Shove, or if the ranger is good enough to hit shove by waiting until he sees its skill icon, then using his interrupt (only seen that once, against Kamikaze Tactics), what I do is warp in about 2 seconds early, hit shove, cancel shove and wait on the interrupt to hit, then hit shove again. VegaObscura 15:35, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I can hit 3/4 sec casts easily, so long as my ping is doing alright. Obviously cancelling can pull out interupts, but are most people that intelligent? Voting on builds you run based on your skill isn't great, since iQ could run mending warriors and probably beat my guild. Lord of all tyria 15:39, 24 January 2008 (EST)

alright. Your proposed solutions are definatly effective, but are using rather advanced tactics that requires good spike timing beyond that of the average wiki scrub. That being said, they do work. I still stand by that this build isnt all too hard to counter, and that it's slow since you cant get around those long recharges, but since it's possible to get around there with a good team i'll remove my vote and either re-add it higher at a later time or refrain from voting all-together. Get a bm or admin to wipe the votes, ill remove mine.Bob fregman 15:42, 24 January 2008 (EST)

So you got 30 consec? Congrats. Good teams regularly get 40 or more with other builds. This is a mediocre build with an easy to stop spike, and it should remain archived imo. --Tab Moo 15:41, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I'm not disagreeing that it should be archived. I would really prefer that this build remain archived, as when someone mentions that my team consists of "wiki noobs", I can point out that they were just beaten by a build in the non-working section of wiki. Go ahead and post a screenshot of yourself with 40+ victories. VegaObscura 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I think i've seen a screenshot of DE(maybe wrong, could be alot of users tbh) with 59 or something like that.Bob fregman 15:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I don't play TA, so I don't have a screen. Those glad 8s get their points from somewhere though.

Trying to defend the build by saying that you've got 30 consec with it is nonsense. I've got consecs with a BL monk and 3 Bull's Charge wars before. Does that mean that's a good build too? --Tab Moo 15:55, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Post a 30-win streak and prove that all your matches were against players that knew what they were doing and I'll pay attention to it. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 16:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I lol'd at this. Is it just me, or are Vega and I the only leaders that can run this build extremely well? I think we deserve to be considered leet for this. That is, leet at positioning, tactics and rolling decent balanced teams. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 17:32, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Be less of an elitist w/o the elite part plz. Stop bragging about how you beat up on the nubs in TA with a boring spike build. Its not all that hard to play, you just run around and spike every 30 seconds. I'll admit that it is easy to counter, but with the recent nerfs, it will be harder to (still pretty easy with AoS and an interrupt). Just because you guys vega (still no proof for napalm, and tbh, i don't belive him) are is "leet" its not hard to say that nubs will totally fuck up the build. Why should you guys care if your build is posted on some wiki (with a bad reputation might i add), you should be keeping it secret or whatnot if its really that good. Go on and keep winning with it, get your rank whatever glad, just give it up here. You have admins against you, no one really cares if the build is here or not, my advice would be to just forget about it all.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 18:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Fair enough, but I shouldn't see why I need proof that I can effortlessly lead my team to 10 consecs at the least. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 18:05, 24 January 2008 (EST)

If you and your team are so 1337, run balanced, it's faster. –Ichigo724 18:17, 24 January 2008 (EST)

The most sense ive heard in this entire section. +100000 for ichigo.— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 18:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

He's not good enough. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 18:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

The keyword in ichigos statement was "if".— Cheese Slaya (Talk) 18:21, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Umm can I be leet now? and we had only one monk.. ~ ĐONT*TALK 18:22, 24 January 2008 (EST)

The reason I don't run balanced is because I don't want to lose every time I come up against gothspike. VegaObscura 18:24, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Then don't lose. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 19:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Doodz TA is hard — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 19:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Hahah, reminds me of the 400+ consec wintersday screens. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 19:03, 24 January 2008 (EST)

....don't lie plx — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 19:03, 24 January 2008 (EST)

No higher resolution = shopped. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 19:48, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Un-fiddle/Un-Arcive?

One of its major counters was nerfed to extinction. Alrhough i did monk through it with glimmer o.o, but to be honest the other team was an epic failure at pulling it off.--Shadowsin 09:42, 29 January 2008 (EST)

herd i magebane some of ther skillz =o ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 10:40, 29 January 2008 (EST)

What exactly got nerfed to extinction? -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 14:28, 29 January 2008 (EST)

extinction wasnt nerfed, he meant something to extinction (not the skill) for example: Aura of Stability ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 14:40, 29 January 2008 (EST)

I wasn't under the impression that there was such a skill called "extinction". I was asking what had been (metaphorically) nerfed to extinction. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 16:38, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Heheh. Aura of Stability. -StarSeeker | My talk 16:40, 29 January 2008 (EST)

It's still viable, and you can just look at the time when they spike and use it 30 seconds later. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 17:02, 29 January 2008 (EST)

A good caller will spike a few differnt targets. If a team has a hard rezer and they keep him constantly proted up, or multiple copies of stability skills the spikers will get at least one kill and run. While it may be lame that is all that is required to win, a higher morale. This build is definitly via::ble but difficult to run. So if you only post easy builds then dont put this back up, but if the builds on this site require some skill this should be unarchived.--Pelius 18:44, 30 January 2008 (EST)

You lost me when you started implying that you could spike things that weren't monks when there were enemy monks alive. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 21:28, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Exactly. Unless you're using the build to spike the monk, the monk should be able to counter this spike with rof->woh->rof. That's assuming the first rof doesn't stop it cold XD. And if they ARE spike the monk, AoS and ward of stability are your friends.--Goldenstar 21:51, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Most shovespikes run after the first kill if they're vs a good team since they then have morale boost. So unless someone on their team dies or someone's overextended, I rarely see a spike anymore. Railin 02:35, 31 January 2008 (EST)

A good team (a half-decent one, even) won't let them get that first kill. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 05:52, 31 January 2008 (EST)

And they'll snare & raep. –Ichigo724 05:55, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Well I guess half decent teams don't exist, considering goth can beat any guild with this, including gank, deer, and ei. VegaObscura 04:50, 1 February 2008 (EST)

So one guild got good with one build. Happens all the time. Still, none of those guilds except ei are top 50... but meh. Just because one guild's good with the build doesn't make the build good - it makes the guild skilled at the build. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 04:56, 1 February 2008 (EST)

So why is it unarchived and trashed when the rating is over 2,5? ~ ĐONT*TALK 00:58, 5 February 2008 (EST)

It worked

For 1 match. When you came up against the same team again, they just loldshot if they didn't get it by the second spike and they won. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 07:19, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Also, this became popular during the ranger meta, so it's archived for that reason why? — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 07:44, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Suggest a better reason. And if it became popular, it should be in archives. Mike Tycn(punch out) 07:48, 5 February 2008 (EST)

It literally become popular for a day, because it only killed decent teams once before getting raped. It rolls scrubs, but that's no way to get glads so this is a terrible build. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 07:50, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Still, it is not trash. I'm not going to get into an argument about the effectiveness of the build, but it was a popular build at one time and that should be enough to warrant an archive. Mike Tycn(punch out) 07:55, 5 February 2008 (EST)

It says it's archived because of ranger meta, fix that then (with a decent reason). The only one you'll have is Was popular for 1-2 days. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 07:57, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Change counters to counter plz ^^ — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 07:57, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Sounds too narrow. And rangers weren't the only counter. Mike Tycn(punch out) 07:59, 5 February 2008 (EST)

It completely countered it every time though flawlessly (I d-shotted every spike while talking on the phone, and I'm only a half-decent ranger) — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 08:01, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Anti-KD skills too. Mike Tycn(punch out) 08:04, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Balthazar's Pendulum is getting pretty common ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 08:56, 5 February 2008 (EST)

This build has been popular for quite awhile, its died for the most part, but you still run into it tbh, If you remember ska we flattened one of them. cuz they sucked at it. its in the archives because it worked at one point and now it doesnt, it doesnt belong in the trash becaue people were able to farm glad points with this and you know it.--Shadowsin 10:55, 5 February 2008 (EST)

No you weren't, if you faced the same decent balanced twice if they hadn't seen you before, your run was ended (gg glad farming) — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 15:32, 5 February 2008 (EST)

The real reason is so many TA teams that try to run it just have no idea how to play it. I decided to join a pug group that someone else was putting together using this build, and they were just painfully bad at using it. They had no idea how to get away, they would stand and cast with a warrior beating on them just because they were low on health, instead of letting the other two monks take care of it, which resulted in repeated knockdown and snaring until the team was wiped. The warrior didn't even know to use shadow walk and shove at the same time with no pause between. They were very VERY slow at removing snares, to the point where most of them just wore off. The real problem with this build is just that every pug team tries to run it like balanced. Also they often have no idea how to deal with Balthazar's Pendulum, Brace Yourself, Balanced Stance, Dark Escape, and pretty much everything that anyone would think is a 'counter' to this build, without ever trying to think of a way to get around those skills even though it is 100% possible. I don't think this belongs on wiki, because it is too difficult to run for the teams that would use wiki. Delete it or archive it. VegaObscura 18:07, 5 February 2008 (EST)

dshot kk? — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 18:08, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Gaurdian kk? VegaObscura 04:28, 6 February 2008 (EST)

magebane kk? Railin 04:49, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Cancel kk? Mike Tycn(punch out) 04:56, 6 February 2008 (EST)

...dshot kk? -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 20:20, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Recast after dshot hits kk? Mike Tycn(punch out) 01:27, 7 February 2008 (EST)

That's called "hacking the game so the server ignores the disable clause of dshot". -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 02:00, 7 February 2008 (EST)

(cancel'd)Recast after d-shot hits. Mike Tycn(punch out) 02:59, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Use any of your many other interrupts. You're still wasting time using Guardian. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 03:48, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Interrupt .75 second aftercast. There's a good chance the second one won't connect. And if you're guardianed, it's even less likely. Mike Tycn(punch out) 04:02, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Playing a derv while facing Shove spike is funny. 3x DW+AoE dmg. Misfate 18:11, 5 February 2008 (EST)

even a glimmer monk can outheal it ----InfestedHydralisk (Talk*Contributions) 18:52, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Actually you'll find that, including Divine Favor, glimmer heals for no more than 150. This spike deals aproximately 800 damage + deep wound, so unless your players have 750 health, glimmer will not outheal it. VegaObscura 04:28, 6 February 2008 (EST)

650* -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 20:20, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Looks like someone wasn't paying attention in math class. Let me spell this out for you.

Holy Strike does 2 sets of 58 damage, so 58+58 = 116

Each monk has 2 skills that do that, so 116 + 116 = 232

There are 3 monks, so 232 x 3 = 696

Then there's the warrior, with Shove, dealing 71 damage, so 696 + 71 = 767

Then there's Crushing Blow, which is the base damage from your hammer (13 hammer mastery) and bonus damage. This is normally around 50, but lets use the worst possible scenario and say 30. So 767 + 30 = 796. This is approximately 800 damage. 800 damage + deep wound. Isn't math fun? If you were saying the person only needs 650 health to survive it, you totally ignore the "+ deep wound" part, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't that stupid. VegaObscura 08:05, 7 February 2008 (EST)

I did miss the deep wound bit - I just looked at numbers and saw 800 - 150 = 650. You could have simply reiterated that instead of wasting space with unnecessary math when, you'll notice, I never questioned the damage of the spike. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 15:06, 7 February 2008 (EST)

That's because you did not use a full sentence. You merely stated a correction of a number, not mentioning which number you were correcting. VegaObscura 20:35, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Only way for common TA monks to catch the spike is Shielding Hands -> WoH, and that takes near perfect timing. Mike Tycn(punch out) 04:56, 6 February 2008 (EST)

So uh dshot the shove. Or glimmer with a followup. Of anything. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 20:20, 6 February 2008 (EST)

As Vega mentioned above, interrupts can be beaten with cancelling, and most counters can be beaten with generally not failing. It's a tad above the average wiki user, but that's no reason why the build shouldn't be archived. And if this build has made you run Glimmer over WoH, that's more reason to archive. Mike Tycn(punch out) 01:27, 7 February 2008 (EST)

...How do you plan to cancel shove again? Especially as you've already used shadow walk at that point, so your 30 second recharge timer has already started. -- Armond Warblade{{sysop}} 02:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)

You can Shadow Walk in a second or two early to counter spamming rangers, or against real rangers escape-cancel Shove then reuse it after you see the interrupt hit. And even if Shove gets d-shotted, you can use Grapple to kd them as well. Mike Tycn(punch out) 02:55, 7 February 2008 (EST)

By the time that you used grapple, your monks will have wasted at least one of their attacks. Railin 05:48, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Which is you time the countdown a bit later if you're against a good ranger. Mike Tycn(punch out) 06:08, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Tbh you can win this with only Shielding Hands+RoF. You see the warrior come in and you cast shielding hands on yourself. And spam RoF whenever you can (like in between KDs). If the spike is on someone else just use SH+Healspams. Swiftslash \\ (contributions *sandbox) 06:21, 7 February 2008 (EST)

If you cast Shielding Hands on yourself, any warrior that knows what he's doing is just going to wait 8 seconds then spike. VegaObscura 08:14, 7 February 2008 (EST)

What a surprising spike! Even easier to dshot. Swiftslash \\ (contributions *sandbox) 08:17, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Why the hell are you arguing? The whole point of this being arcived is that its counters became to well known, so stop QQing and go argue about something else cuz this is stupid. The build worked at one point and now it doesnt, =/= trash i dont see what the big deal is.--Shadowsin 08:26, 7 February 2008 (EST)

how is the build trash now? just a couple of days ago [Goth] got 50 consecutive wins from 45-50 we picked up a random sin because someone had to leave and we didnt want to stop.~Claumpit

Builds work well. See my reasons above, being effective against a team only 1 time. — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 20:46, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Against a good team, ineffective full stop, but against almost ALL teams, it worked FAR more than once, and even now it works several times over, forcing them to change build. Why do you think you still see loads of teams run them at about 2-6AM GMT in AD1? ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (EST)

Any build can farm nub hours — Skadiddly[슴Mc슴]Diddles 16:45, 17 February 2008 (EST)

Pvx is getting slaughtered

By vega and tycn. Its official. ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 08:29, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Don't get it, what do you mean?--Frans 09:11, 7 February 2008 (EST)

He's just QQing again. Lord Belar 21:08, 7 February 2008 (EST)

nou ~~ Napalm Flame >=] (talk)·(contributions) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (EST)

Yourface. —ǘŋƐxɩsƫ 12:03, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Unex, you're about 4 months late on that comment. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 12:04, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Better late than never. ~ ĐONT*TALK 12:05, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Not always. Especially since unexist is talking to somebody whos permabanned... --- Ressmonkey (talk) 15:17, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

He has a sock, anyway. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 15:43, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

PvX wiki has gone to the trolls.--Ikimono 00:22, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

LOL

I laughed at the reason this is archived. "Counter's Too Well Known".To this day only 1 counter is known to this build and thats Ride The Lighting Spikers. And plz don't give me any of this, "good joke" shit, cause I'm core in Goth and i know for a fact that this works better than virtually any other TA build in Guild Wars still. But this one is wrong, just fyi.Vhang The Reaper (talk · contributions) 22:25, 3 December 2008 (EST)

Dshot>shovespike. Shove isn't hard to interrupt, you know exactly when it's coming anyway. -- wins. 22:29, 3 December 2008 (EST)

Also, it would help to read the counters. 11, not 1. -- wins. 22:31, 3 December 2008 (EST)

Goth knows how to use Shovespike. I bet that KMD could win with the majority of these, but that doesn't mean they're still good builds for everyone. --71.229 22:43, 3 December 2008 (EST)

By KMD you mean StS or rawr or someone who knows what they're doing, right? -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 02:25, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Whatever brings you the most joy, Armond. --71.229 03:15, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Shove Spike>D shot...the real Shove Spike includes grapple just incase. Oh and only 2 of those counters are actually true counters, everything else is a poor attempt at shutdown that makes us laugh on vent.Vhang The Reaper (talk · contributions) 19:29, 4 December 2008 (EST)

it's really fun to just ball up vs shove spike, grasp them all, and beat the shit out of its complete lack of defense.--GoldenStar 19:36, 4 December 2008 (EST)

3 Monks + Shadowsteps = no defense now?--72.189.85.14 20:34, 4 December 2008 (EST)

When it's easy to counter those shadowsteps and those monks run two heals, 1 prot, 1 condition removal, and 1 hex removal between them, yes.--GoldenStar 20:43, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Restarting indent, and btw, Golden, your extremely ignorant. You have Divert Hexes and Dash, to get you out of the shadowstep...and the normal build has another skill to help kiting, but due to confidentiality, i'm not allowed to release the entire build. But in all srsness. This build>Anything else. Want proof? Goth frequently gets ~75 in a row with this build. We also rolled sup's core in TA several times. GL arguing with that one.Vhang The Reaper (talk · contributions) 17:13, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Vhang, how many good shovespike teams are there currently in GW? I raged GW a few months ago, but I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say it's just you guys. PvX exists to document the meta. If there's only one good shovespike team left in all of GW, shovespike isn't meta anymore. It's that simple. It's the same reason shovespike got WELL'd the first time it was posted here, for that matter. --71.229 22:37, 9 December 2008 (EST)

tbh it really is very easy to counter, i went in with my ra team and pwned a shovespike team. Wasnt hard-->aftercast in shadowstep made it easy as hell for me to interupt. The delay really allows ppl to see it coming, unlike before when it was a bit better since it was somewhat much harder to predict PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 23:25, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Only one counter to shove spike..stop arguing...only reason you beat them is cause they are terrible.Vhang The Reaper (talk · contributions) 22:22, 20 December 2008 (EST)

Vang, everyone here knows this team build is without a doubt a great team build, and when run by pros is near impossible to defeat, but we prefer it to be archived so that less people will use it since it's really annoying to deal with. (Timcago 03:20, 15 January 2009 (EST)).

I've faced Vega running Shovespike in TA once. I was in an RA team with no healer and we lost. I've faced other shove spikes like 100 times and probably won 90 of them. When they won it took them until the timer ran out to win. I don't really consider that a particularly good record because I am not a good TA player by any stretch, yet I beat shove spike about 9/10. I can't comment how well Goth runs this because I've never faced them, but most people run it terribly and it's almost griefing to have to play against it. Pretty happy with it in archive to be honest, it's not exactly a commonly run build these days anyway. Oh and Vhang, rage more. It's funny. - Misery Is Friendly 04:18, 15 January 2009 (EST)

@pwnagemuffin, shadow walk has no aftercast delays, it only diables attack skills for 1 sec. so i dont really know what ur talking about with any aftercasts InfestedHydralisk 07:25, 15 January 2009 (EST)

So, concluding: if you suck, you will fail with Shove spike... but umm, isnt like that with every single build? just with a little variation on difficulty? So following those ideas... Let's archive all pvx builds!! :D Joan % 10:21, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Are you suggesting we submit and 5-5-x any build a korean guild uses? If only one (or a handful) of players in the game can run a build without sucking horrendously, why do we have to record it? - (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Not completely true. 82.75.192.76 10:26, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Counter: shovespike team teleports in, warriors uses shove, meta teams (that lieks to have a ranger in the team) uses dshot/salvage/kites/pre-patient/prot/folo up and attack their team while watching for grapple/win PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 11:32, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Pre-guardian go go go? I havent seen magebane rangers in quite a while in TA, maybe i'm just drunk. but either way: guardian - spike - wtfpwn. In case shove gets Magebaned use lovely grapple and :O guardian is still up! (unless you are too slow) Joan % 14:21, 10 February 2009 (EST)

gw:Wastrel's Collapse

Wouldn't that make this...well...better? Could follow up with falling spider+twisting fangs. Could still bring grapple or something as well. Life 00:00, 11 February 2009 (EST)

missing damage from shove PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 00:01, 11 February 2009 (EST)

• 1 skill damage instead of a multiple skill one that can be blocked by stance meta PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 00:02, 11 February 2009 (EST)