Archive talk:Me/any Lyssa's Degenerator

Well please discuss. I have been playing this build some time now and had good success with it. Any comments except "inferior to WoH" are welcome. Looks like Breitschleif 07:09, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

Moved to Testing. The new buff of Lyssa´s Aura makes energy management a complete joke now^^ Looks like Breitschleif 06:00, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I had this exact same idea pretty much when i saw the change.--IkimonoI'm Sober. What's your excuse? 07:50, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Accumulated Pain or Phantom Pain would be nice. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 07:55, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

You might be able to ditch phantasm for clumsiness for damage actually. Not sure mantra is very important either tbh, since you're spamming nightmare on recharge anyway. -Auron 08:04, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

15 second elord is nice though. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 08:20, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

/agree to Auron, i wrote it down in Variants. I tried different skill combinations by switching out the Mantra and/or EL, you can more or less take whatever you want to but the build i posted here was the combination i had most success/fun with. Distortion is really cool with Lyssa, too, you can use it more or less anytime you are under melee pressure. Do you guys think i can add an AB-tag perhaps?

@Rickyvantof: Elord is not affected by the mantra... unfortunately ;(Looks like Breitschleif 08:24, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Oh okay. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 08:26, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Soothing Images would be pretty cool, too, would last like nearly 30 seconds... Looks like Breitschleif 08:28, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Wouldn't it be good if you used Diversion and Shame instead of the two degen skill and Signet of Humility instead of the Mantra? --Melvelet 15:47, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Your missing the purpose of this build. You can spread 10 degen to every opponent with no energy problems while also denying energy ro vital characters (monks). Since hexes are so gay to remove you can pretty much pressure the shit outta the other team. --Frosty 15:49, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I haven't gotten a chance to play it yet so I may have more feedback in a bit, but there's a lot of overkill in this build. As has already been noted, Conjure Phantasm when stacked with Conjure Nightmare is only yielding 2 pips of degen from Conjure Phantasm unless they're already regenning -- which isn't very common from most of the dangerous enemies. If you do need to stack it up, it's most likely an enemy ranger with Unguent (Monks with Breeze are almost never good at staying alive), and I'd look at Shrinking Armor instead of Conjure Phantasm to weaken them for your allies with the cracked armor on ending. Also, for the 10 seconds of every 20 you can keep Ether Lord up you're at 12 energy regen. This is perfect for bringing a +energy set that you switch to every time after you cast it -- you'll get an extra 30 energy to play with and still be capped on energy regen. Switch back if you get Lyssa's stripped or on the end of Ether Lord. Other than that, I think having a Deep Wound available for pushing people over the edge right before a Word can heal them from the degen that's been going on the whole fight might be a nice touch, I'd trade 5 energy lost from Ether Phantom for this and just drain Cracked Armor when needed (Enemy monks will take that 5 energy to repair the deep wound, and if you kill someone instead it's even better). -Binary 13:52, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Conjure Nightmare + Phantasm is 12 degen, it just caps at 10. So if they had Mending giving +3 regen, for example, they would suffer 9 degen. And it's very easy to throw across an entire team of 4 people. -- Guild of Deals 13:53, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Did you just seriously suggest someone is going to be running mending across their team in RA and still be a threatening team that it matters to have overcapped degen against? Just so you know, Conjure Phantasm + Conjure Nightmare is 13 degen. -Binary 14:28, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Yes and it is capped to 10, but spreading 10 degen around a team ? just 8 or 5, you have the energy to so why not? --Frosty 14:37, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

I already explained why I was recommending swapping skills when I suggested the change, if you want me to go more in depth I need to know what part of the explanation you're not understanding. "So what?" tells me nothing. Did I even mention energy costs of the Conjures? I have no idea what you're arguing against but it sure doesn't look like my post. -Binary 14:41, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Another thing, having two of them allows you to stick one on nearly every member of the enemy party, as opposed to having a 5s interval between each one, adds a shitload of pressure. - STAR OF EXILE 14:46, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Then it's not 10 degen on every opponent, is it? Please tell me which the build actually does. -Binary 14:53, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Both. A build can do more than one thing. - STAR OF EXILE 14:56, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually, 10 degen on the enemy team is outright impossible. Here's part of why: Conjure Nightmare and Phantasm are both 5 recharge. At best, you're getting it on the enemies with 2 seconds downtime and it's barely maintained on the fourth enemy. Realistically, you can do it on 3. But, that being said, the build doesn't have enough emanagement for it. I'll post why in a new paragraph. -Binary 15:15, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Your build says: "Now begin spamming Conjure Nightmare and Conjure Phantasm all over the enemy team. Due to the Mantra, they will last 18 seconds, pressuring the enemy healer with -10 life degeneration on his team mates." This won't work for long. Here are the energy costs/gains of the build over 1 minute:

5 energy every 30 seconds = 2 reapplies = -10 energy (Lyssa's)

5 energy every 20 seconds = 3 reapplies = -15 energy (Ether Lord)

100 energy every 18 seconds = 3 reapplies = -300 energy (Both Conjures on 4 people)

15 energy every 15 seconds = 4 reapplies = -60 energy (Mantra)

+10 energy every 12 seconds = 5 reapplies = +60 energy (Drain Delusions net gain)

9 energy regen for 30 seconds = 3 energy per second * 30 = 90 energy (Lyssa's regen)

10 energy regen for 30 seconds = 3.3 energy per second * 30 = 98 energy (Lyssa's + Ether regen)

Net: -10 - 15 - 300 - 60 + 60 + 90 + 98 = -137 net energy per minute (-62 if you only maintain conjures on three)

This gives you the ability to apply both Conjures to all 4 enemies, realistically their recharges prohibit it. Even if you're not maintaining them on all 4 people, you end up with 75 energy * 3 = 225 and are still at net -62 energy. The build just can't support it, and that gets worse if you lose *any* energy when you cast Ether Lord. Yes, it's good degen. But saying 10 degen to the entire enemy team is exaggerating. This is part of why I suggested Conjure Phantasm -> Cracked Armor and Ether Phantom -> Phantom Pain/Accumulated Pain, this helps lower its overall energy costs and keeps it pressure-focused still without greatly impacting the degen, because at that full degen application you're running out of energy anyway. -Binary 15:15, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

He means one or the other, not both on everyone. Also I changed the message about you gaining 20 energy from the drain delusions and ether phantom to 10, because you math is off. It costs 5 energy for Ether phantom and 5 for drain, and you gain 20. so 20-5-5=10, not 20. Justin6 16:20, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

The statement I was objecting to was "spreading 10 degen to the enemy team". This makes it sound like you're applying 10 to everyone, but the build can't maintain even close to that degen on most of the enemy team without very rapidly running out of energy. While you say "you(r) math is off" I assume you mean for the build author even though you're posting a reply to my comment. Really though, for yourself Ether Lord is pretty poor energy return because Lyssa's already drives you up near the regen cap and even weapon switching is only unhiding energy and not actually giving you any new reserves. It actually is resulting in even more drain on the build rather than helping its energy issues. I like it for the reduced regen e-denial, but for e-gain it's poor. -Binary 16:33, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Tbh when I run this I drop Phantasm for an illusion snare. --Frosty 16:34, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Yes, Phantasm only adds 2 more degen, which is negligible. moush 19:31, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

25 second Imagined Burden sounds nice... - Generic Wiki-er 20:40, 11 October 2008 (EDT)