Talk: A/R Critical Barrage Assassin

Discussion

I am successfully using this build on Zenmai. She’ll use Barrage intelligently (whenever there is more than one foe she can hit). I recommend adding this as a tested PvE Hero build. --80.145.184.28 00:38, 20 June 2007 (EDT) (gw:User:hatch)

I second the recommendation. Zenmai's AI manages this build very effectively with out player intervention. The attempted use of Sharpen Daggers can result in lost time and energy in areas where Bleeding is ineffective. However, this skill is easily disabled or replaced in that situation. --G.G. 04:09, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

An anon added a note that Critical Agility is good for this build. Seems to me that it isn't - you'll be hitting skills over and over, so IAS is little use. Is there something I'm missing? Permanganate 07:18, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

there is indeed, sir. in addition to its recharge, barrage also takes the time of a normal attack, which critical agility cuts considerably. rather than a cycle of bow attack time + 1 sec, you have a cycle of bow attack time * .66 + 1 second.--Reason.decrystallized 00:54, 7 July 2007 (CEST)

I also want to motion for it to go to heros build. My zenmai uses it well. I even switched to a b/p version so that my team had the extra tank. ~the rat~

how bout instead of barrage, volley and add in way of the assassin? higher crit rate. what a tard i am. someone already suggested that. FearDrake! 21:18, 3 November 2007 (CET)

Checked and Reviewed

For Viability. Readem (talk*pvxcontribs) 13:06, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

Discussion of possible R/P superiority

Do people think an R/P is better than this build? I can't even tell if Skakid9090 was talking about a barrage-using R/P, presumably using gw:"Go for the Eyes!", or a barrage/pet build. I also don't understand the reference to the gw:Sharpen Daggers nerf, since that skill hasn't been part of this build for months. A/R has the most criticals (GtfE will only apply to a single arrow of the next Barrage, AFAIK, while Critical Strikes and Critical Eye apply to every arrow) but the R/P has better armor and slightly higher Marksmanship (runes). Thoughts from someone who's tried both, or has at least number crunched? Permanganate 07:23, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Only reason people go R/P is for "Find Their Weakness!" and "Go for the Eyes!" using Keen Arrow for critical and deep wound. Its in no way related to an A/R Critical Barrager except for similarity in buffing critical chance. --NYC Elite 07:37, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

GFTE barrager. Same amount of criticals, higher markmanship, more damage, party assistance. More effective in every manner. Therefore, a clearly inferior build violates PvX:Well. - Skakid9090 08:55, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

IIRC, GftE only affects 1 arrow, hardly more effective. --NYC Elite 09:09, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

whats iirc mean? - Skakid9090 09:09, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

If I Recall/Remember Correctly. - Krowman {{sysop}} 09:21, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

aaaaanyway, the reason the build was good because it spread bleeding, which a barrager couldnt. if you want to barrage, use a splinter barrager and kill, if you want to pretend to be a ranger on your assassin, use this. - Skakid9090 09:22, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Heroes handle Splinter Barrager like retards. I watched my Dunkoro get pounded by a few wars and dervs, watched him kite further and further away from them, then once his health got down to about 25%, Margrid slapped Splinter Wep on him. Long story short, I went back to using Norgu. - Krowman {{sysop}} 09:26, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Heroes handle R/P very well =) - Skakid9090 09:28, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Only with spears. And pet AI. Otherwise, they suck as R/P. 24.10.247.2 09:56, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

I don't use this trash, I'm just saying, if you're gonna shut it down, do it for the right reasons. --NYC Elite 10:03, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Change to "The nerf of Sharpen Daggers made this build inferior to a ranger primary"? - Skakid9090 10:51, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Well that is a big reason, but Sharpen Daggers was optional in the slot, the main purpose of the build was to deal lots of AoE critical hits. --NYC Elite 10:57, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

What nerf exactly? Couldn’t find a reference in game updates other than a bugfix. --Hatch 12:12, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

long time ago, I didn't bother looking. sharpen used to work for XX seconds, not XX attack skills - Skakid9090 12:24, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

At least this doesn't cause the user to bleed anymore lmao. 75.162.242.246 13:04, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

What a horrible bug, yet the skill sucks so hard I didn't even bother with it. --NYC Elite 13:07, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Well, Sharpen Daggers works great with this build. At least in PvE (and that’s what it is for), usually Bleeding is rarely removed, so it will inflict massive Bleeding, even if only once or twice. When I charge enemy mobs, they usually are already bleeding when I reach them – thanks to Zenmai and this build. !vote Remove the notice. --Hatch 01:06, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

But that's not the point. The point is Sharpen Daggers was nerfed. It doesn't work on all attacks for X seconds anymore (IIRC, that's how it worked), it works on attacks made by skills. A dual attack, for example, would waste 2 of the "attack skills" if they both critical. With Barrage, if you critical on all 6 arrows, it would waste 6 of the "attack skills" therefore its far less useful now because it can only be kept up on a critical Barrager for 1-2 attacks (only about 4 seconds max) rather than indefinitely. Should be archived or something imo. --NYC Elite 03:07, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

I don't understand why people are going on about things that I noted in my first post were not true. Sharpen Daggers has not been part of this build for months so talking about it is irrelevant, and Skakid9090 saying that R/P gets more criticals when I noted in my first post that GftE! will apply to only one arrow in each Barrage. The two sides in this discussion are not even in the same discussion; the debate needs to be about whether A/R is better or worse than R/P now. Permanganate 07:15, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Ok, the R/P deals more DPS, helps the party by adding crits, it deals deep wound, interupts better because of increased energy management, and it can bring a hard res (siggy of return). - Skakid9090º_o 07:17, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Not many people bring a res, let alone a hard res (sig of return sucks imo) in PvE. Also, unless you got an all physical damage party, GftE is only "helping" the tank or two and you in the party. Also, this can interrupt too, slap dshot or savage shot (which used to be part of the main build) on the bar. R/P is hardly dealing more DPS, a few points extra in marksmanship and 1 extra (not guaranteed) critical isn't an insane amount more. Also, this is energy management from zealous bow string, critical eye, and +3 energy from (albeit not guaranteed, but very likely) critical hits. Still waiting for a valid reason. --NYC Elite 07:27, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Hardly is still more. Rangers with a zealous bow and decent expertise can fire off d-shots and s-shots like there's no tomorrow. A hard res is better, just because people don't bring it doesn't mean it's not good. Better to help a tank or two then help nobody. Deep wound is ftw. - Skakid9090º_o 07:30, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

I still don’t get it. A Crit Barrager can hit multiple targets critical – that’s the very idea of this build; R/P (whatever variant) can not and therefore is inferior. Is it that simple? --Hatch 15:09, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

The A/R doesn't critical on every shot. It averages 2/6 shots. So the ranger can do all the team help i said above and have higher markmanship, the 1 critical extra the A/R gets does not make up for all the R/P does. Deep wound, hard res, crits go to the whole party, more interupts. - Skakid9090º_o 15:12, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

Let’s see… NYC Elite said so before, the builds are not 100% related. For this build, it comes down to the number of criticals inflicted and targets hit by the player. A/R is more like a critical nuker. Deal more AoE criticals and you have a superior build. Deal less with the same idea in mind and you have an inferior build. Now, R/P is no nuker. Aiding the party is the idea, or maybe spreading conditions, interrupting, more DPS, etc. There are numerous builds out there that are superior to A/R on these criteria, yet they all hit only one target critical at a time… R/P is a different idea, and inferior when it comes to dealing AoE critical damage. It is that simple, I believe. —Hatch 16:06, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

The ranger primary does slightly less than the A/R on non-crits and a lot more on crits. If you wanna look at it from a pure straight-up damage standpoint this is inferior to a R/Rt or Rt/R barrager. It's lost it's effectiveness since the Sharpen Daggers nerf. - Skakid9090º_o 16:13, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

I fail to see how a build is now unusable over an optional skill slot. I also fail to see the point to the debate about R/P builds etc being better. Not everyone may have Nightfall so this would be a good build to use for those that don't, especially if you don't want to use Ranger primary. I think alot of people fail to see the whole point of this build.-Unreal Havoc 23:51, 1 July 2007 (CEST)

Triple shot ftw, bitches. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 18:14, 11 July 2007 (CEST)

R/P is Ranger and A/R is Assassin. So the builds must not be compared imo^^. It is like if you were saying that the E is a better nucker than the Me/E. --Ttibot(Talk) 16:18, 11 August 2007 (CEST)

GW:EN Skills

Way of the Warrior for Critical Eye FTW! :D Smoke Powder Defence is a good choice for the optional slot too. Unreal Havoc 04:18, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

Way of the Master

Pretty obvious, but - Way of the Master (from GW:EN) makes this build pretty ridiculous. It lasts a lot longer than Way of the Assassin AND has the decency not to be elite. Using it in the place of the optional slot and I'd take it over critical eye. With all 3 and volley instead of barrage, you could get (35+16+35+16)% = well over 100% chance to crit.

I vote Way of the Master over critical eye. Using it in the optional skill slot, however, makes this build absolute. It sorts out any energy problems when there are two or more foes that can be hit. Verses a MM this build is HIGHLY destructive also.

I just been using this lately. Mainly just been farming The Snowmen Lair for dwarf points with 3 SF Heros, Barrage Hench, Fire Hench, 2 Monk Hench and myself. Works pretty good. Obviously some of these skills and stat point I use are options, but since I play with hench im not concerned with people not liking my lack of defense. :P

<pvxbig> [build prof=A/R name="Critical Barrager 2" mar=12 sha=0 cri=12+1+3][Barrage][Distracting Shot][Savage Shot][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Way of the Master][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

Gandorf 20:10, 16 September 2007 (CEST)

Pvp Effectiveness

How effective would this be in a pvp battle? As of now, it is registered as pve general, but how would it fend in AB for example, when attacking shrines or groups of enemies (AoE damage)? Has anyone tried yet? Eyekwah 17:52, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

See A/D Critical Master --Kyrax 17:56, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

That's not PvP, that's PvE. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 23:16, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Works well in Alliance Battles for capping Shrines if you use Sharpen Daggers, good at firing into MM mobs too. Unreal Havoc 21:40, 3 November 2007 (CET)

AB

I always see a bunch of sins using this in AB and they either kill me (opposing team) or kill the entire other team 9helping me). Maybe add it on?Fire Tock 03:35, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Oh ya. this build works great in ab because of the large groups of people. it should probably be added to the ab list, but but it still works much better for pve. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zarka (contribs) 21:26, 4 February 2008.

Counters

Btw I found a counter to this, Blind and Stoneflesh Aura.Fire Tock 04:04, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Blind is a counter to all non-casters, not just this build. Same goes for Stoneflesh.--Dux 20:23, 26 October 2007 (CEST)

Yeah but this build relies on Critical hits. With Stoneflesh Aura you can't land one.Fire Tock 02:36, 27 October 2007 (CEST)

Assassin's Remedy FTW! Well, at least against Blind (or any other conditions) anyway. As for Stone Flesh Aura just don't aim for the target using it seems you should be aiming into a group anyway. Unreal Havoc 02:39, 27 October 2007 (CEST)

So i herd rip enchantment was good. File:Definite caboose sig.jpgAce(LVPoW)NO U! 12:56, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Really good Variants

Hey i just noticed i talk alot; I'm sorry. But i found that if you use Asuran Scan and Crit Agility in place of Favorable winds and Rez than it works just as well and maybe a little better.Fire Tock 02:48, 27 October 2007 (CEST)

Asura scan is not aoe isn't it? However it is a good idea to increase damages when going up against a boss.--Ttibot(Talk) 10:52, 27 October 2007 (CEST)

IAS doesn't affect the rate at which you fire Barrage off. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 23:21, 27 October 2007 (CEST)

I noticed it too. 1arrow/2 fire without barrage. But it permits to use a hornbow at the same rate of a short/flatbow. I still don't know if it is really better. Never tested the two on the same target.--Ttibot(Talk) 01:51, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

Well i guess for variant we need to add Volley when using with critical agility Yizhuo2006 01:00, 1 November 2007 (CET)

Well, imo no. It is the weapon refire wich must be > to the recharge time of the skill. You may also fire at normal barrage rate if you don't autofire -try don't use the space bar. However I still don't understand why 1arrow/2 is not affected by barrage when using a short/flatbow. I though 33% faster than 2s was 1/(1/2+1/2*0.33)=1,5s or maybe 2-2*0,33=1,34 but it is still > to the 1s rate of barrage. Does someone know why??? Maybe it is "possible" if clic under 0,3s???--Ttibot(Talk) 16:19, 1 November 2007 (CET)

Umm. What?Fire Tock 16:51, 11 November 2007 (CET)

Umm... Ok... My english is bad... I know.... I mean I don't understand why, using a shortbow or a flatbow + Critical Agility, some arrows are not affected by barrage even if you continually click on the skill.--Ttibot(Talk) 19:55, 11 November 2007 (CET)

ok im quite new to poasting, but i do understand this build...you will crit over 100% of the time that is to say evry time you fire off barrage you will crit on evrything you hit, regaining spent energy with some left over and if you have Way of Perfection you gain an insain amount of hp or using the build but WoP insted of shadow refuge thats 38hp*6=228h hp(and as long as your hiting 6 things thats over 1000hp in 10 seconds(or less) for the energy cost as well is cheep...(no monk comes even close to that(per person))...also v worthy to note that Critical Agility WILL speed up fire rate of barrage a large amount and with this build having that skill is viable from 1 ss!!! as the ss point only add armer(also worthy to say the armer is not type persific)...all in all this build can be v good..1 last thing take a hero runing a simalar build or a ranger one you like as you can keep up Favorable Winds from 1 fight to another...my point is take out Shadow Refuge for WoP and replace an atack skill for Critical Agility --Davidsheart 19:46, 20 November 2007 (CET)

Percents stack multiplicatively, so this build has a 70-80% chance to crit (I'm not gonna run the numbers). Critical Agility will not speed up Barrage since it's got the 1sec cooldown and all you're going to be doing is double-drawing a lot. And you're never going to be hitting six things at once. --71.229.204.25 19:49, 20 November 2007 (CET)

no not in normal game play which is for this build, perhaps 3 on avrage im not to shore the thing is if theres takers REALY doing there job and your in a melee heavy area you are going to hit 6, as long as they dont block like rangers do. i do like this this build and its just as viable as any other barrarge build out there...Critical Agility is still usefull, if you realy are low on energy(which i dout) it will speed up the hits so you crit faster and the armer is v usefull as i said its not type persific..off topic how do you "tab" so your spaced awat from the poast ya comenting on--Davidsheart 20:50, 20 November 2007 (CET)

ok my 2nd vairent...love dervs? i use this <pvxbig> [build prof=assas/dervi critic=10+1+3 shadow=8+1 scythem=12][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Victorious Sweep][Critical Eye][Way of the Master][Way of Perfection][Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][/build] </pvxbig> feel free to talk about this, but i use it in pve a lot..also leaves room for a elite of your choise usualy replacing Victorious Sweep

--Davidsheart 20:34, 20 November 2007 (CET)

Different build. That uses scythe this uses bow VendingMachine 02:04, 9 December 2007 (CET)

Best results I've had

I'm currently running an SoD monk in a PvE campaign, and always take a healer henchie, so I have found that stripping all healing and defense out of this build makes it much better. I also took out Favorable Winds, just because I hate the 5 second setup time. Also, Zenmai *will* waste 5 seconds putting this up during combat if it recharges. What I wound up with is Barrage, Sharpen Daggers (which *is* great for this build in PvE especially w/ barbed bowstring), way of the master, critical eye, distracting shot, savage shot, disrupting shot, res sig.

I've also found that when gaming with humans (as opposed to heroes / henchies), they don't like to wait for the 5 second favorable winds setup.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garut (contribs) 11:32, 20 January 2008.

Hmmm...

8 Shadow Arts for Shadow Refuge? It provides a decent heal even at low levels, and if you have good Monks, shouldn't be needed. --GuildofDeals 08:59, 2 March 2008 (EST)

Drop it and use crit defenses. You'll avoid more damage than refuge will heal and you can move around the attribute points. Socnicklin 12:07, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Current versions

This should be the standard bar imo.

General PvE <pvxbig> [build prof=assas/range critic=12+1+1 marksm=12][Way of the Master][Critical Agility][Barrage][Distracting Shot@0][Savage Shot][Critical Defenses][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

Optionals can generally be Assassins Remedy, Anitdote Signet, Sharpen Daggers, Way of Perfection, Feigned Neutrality, Charm Animal & Comfort animal for Barrage/Pet teams, or a spirit. Selket Shadowdancer 08:50, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Don't forget that this is also for Heroes, so Critical Agility should be optional. Also, I'd prefer Shadow Refuge/Way of Perfection over Feigned Neutrality because you wouldn't have to stop attacking. I think the build should be as it is now, but with Shadow Refuge, Favorable Winds and Critical Eye as optional. Also, it seems we're using 14 Critical Strikes, where 13 should be enough for energy return. -Mike 09:03, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Just filling up the extra rune space, that +1 is that little more extra chance to critical. Monks should heal you, I only add Feigned Neutrality as optional for kiting as you recieve more armour which comes in handy in near party wipes. Way of Perfection is generally a better combat self heal than Shadow Refuge. A note should be added for swapping out Critical Agility for heroes (though thats just common sense). Critical Eye isn't even needed, Way of the Master and Critical Strikes at 13+ is more than enough to manage energy, you don't even need Zealous. Selket Shadowdancer 09:10, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Well, as long as you're hitting multiple foes, your energy will be fine. 1 extra attribute in Critical Strikes isn't really worth the loss of 40 health. That +1 probably only adds an additional 2-3% chance to Critical, because additional Critical Hit chances stack multiplicatively (sadly). -Mike 09:17, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Please explain how you lose 40 health with a minor rune? From what I gather Critical Hits stack with Way of the Master, but Critical Eye does not, hence the high chance of achieveing critical hits. As the build currently stands, it has Critical Strikes at 14 but with a superior rune (-75 Health) :/ Selket Shadowdancer 09:20, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

No, I don't mean the build you just submitted here. The actual build uses a Superior Critical Strikes Rune and has 14 Critical Strikes (unless for some reason 10+1+3 doesn't equal 14 XD). I'm saying, we should at least switch the Superior Rune in the current build to a Major Rune, giving you an extra 40 health, if I'm not mistaken. -Mike 09:25, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

I see what you mean now.

<pvxbig> [build prof=assas/range critic=10+1+2 shadow=8 marksm=12][Way of the Master][Critical Agility][Barrage][Distracting Shot@0][Savage Shot][Critical Defenses][Way of Perfection][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

<pvxbig> [build prof=assas/range critic=10+1+2 shadow=8 marksm=12][Way of the Master][Critical Agility][Barrage][Distracting Shot@0][Savage Shot][Comfort Animal][Charm Animal][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

That way you have 8 points of Shadow Arts or Beast Mastery if you go Barrage/Pet. Should you not use either then just throw all the points into Critical Strikes at 15. Selket Shadowdancer 09:37, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Rune issue fixed. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 12:25, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Still, what about the skills, I think throwing in a couple of optional slots would be better, drop Critical Eye or Way of the Master (no one really runs both, you don't need to) and Shadow Refuge and just add to variants. Selket Shadowdancer 12:46, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

The thing with the Build section is that it's the suggested bar. Since it's been the one vetted with large concensus over time, with no changes to any skills, it's not a great idea to change it, especially if it's for something as small an issue as adding optionals. I'll add a note in the variants about your suggestion. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 12:49, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Splinter Weapon

Doesn't make this any less a waste of a slot. I don't know what you are trying to tell me. -Shen 12:31, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Really? Suddenly Barrage is bad? Again, you're not explaining yourself. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 12:32, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

I never said Barrage is bad. I said this is a waste of a slot, because it has no advantage over a Ranger with a variable secondary. -Shen 12:34, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Barrage Rangers run roughly the same bar in PvE. Also, you should probably put that in your rating comment then, rather some random Splinter Barrage ramble that makes very little sense. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 12:36, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Splinter Weapon was an example of a possibility; if that wasn't clear, I agree. -Shen 12:42, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Going by just the fact that this is one of the better Hero Assassin builds to run, I find your 1.3 vote, on a proven to work build that is still used by Assassins, and allows Assassins to participate in Barrage/Pet teams, today laughable. Not that it really hurts this builds rating anyway. No advantage? Show us a Ranger that can spread conditions while using Barrage and maintain better energy management, a better IAS, better blocking skills, and such a high chance to critical. Selket Shadowdancer 12:53, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Splinter Weapon on the actual Barrager's skill bar slows you down, which is why many of us take Heroes/other party members with Splinter Weapon (and Ancestor's Rage). So, in the end, it shouldn't really matter if you have your secondary open (unless you want to take Conjures, which means the loss of Vampiric Order and Order of Pain) because you shouldn't be casting Splinter Weapon on yourself. Also, Dwarven Stability+Lightning Reflexes is the Ranger primary equivalent of Critical Defenses and Critical Agility for a PvE Player, but you need a better rank to maintain LR. The only real thing that a Ranger primary lacks is the high critical hit rate that makes Sins pwn with any weapon, even wands. XD -Mike 13:01, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Ummmm, AoE Critcal Hits that cause Bleeding under the effects of Splinter Weapon given by a hero. Just lovely. I would prefer to use Critical Agility and Critical Defenses over Lightning Reflxes and Dwarven Stability though. Maintained better and the extra armour is nice without being dependant on a high rank to use. :D In any case the reasons given against this build doesn't make it any less viable. It clearly works well, and still sees alot of use. Selket Shadowdancer 13:10, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

I'm gonna get my PvE Sin a Zealous Shortbow because of this build. It's just annoying seeing your Sin attack faster than Barrage can handle on its own (works well with Barrage and Volley, but I would rather not take Volley). Methinks Barrage shouldn't have a recharge (nor should Moebius Strike and Death Blossom) because I don't like seeing my Sin point his bow, put it back down and then attack. XD -Mike 13:19, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Hornbows generally work better due to the +10 Armour Penetration. You shouldn't need Zealous as it takes just two arrows to critcal to regain your energy and then some, so just go with a Sundering modification imo. Selket Shadowdancer 20:42, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

This needs less Shadow Refugee. ɟoʇuɐʌʎʞɔıɹ 10:27, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

This needs ...

Critical Agility and some norn shouts in the main bar. you have the energy to spam "YMLaD!" on recharge, and that is way cooler than Savage shot (because you can use it mid-barrage). also, critical agility DOES help barrage--barrage's cycle time is 1 sec recharge + activation. activation time is a normal attack, and critical agility reduces the time for normal attacks by 33%. so you get more shots off, have more armor, and have WotM covered.--Reason.decrystallized 18:09, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Critical Agility is in Variants, because this is also meant for heroes. You can add Norn Shouts to the Variants, too, if you like. -Mike 18:11, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Done. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 20:27, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

I effing love that skill.--Reason.decrystallized 15:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

My variant

I posted my variant of the build, which is better for solo purposes imo. <pvxbig> [build prof=assas/range critic=11+1+1 shadow=8+1 marksm=12][Barrage][Savage Shot][Favorable Winds][Assassin's Remedy][Way of the Master][Way of Perfection][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][/build] </pvxbig>

First of all, it actually uses the high crit rate to easily maintain skills like Critical defenses and Critical Agility. And with the high crit rating, it probably outheals Shadow Refuge: with 9 Shadow Arts you have 4 sec of 8 health regen and 76 healing. 8 health regen is 16 hp per sec. 4 sec is the duration and 4x16 = 64 so the healing of shadow refuge is 64+76=140. And it also has a recharge of 8 sec and activation time of 1 sec. so for every 9 sec, u have 140 hp of healing. The average is 140/9 = 15,56 healing per sec.

Way of Perfection gives 32hp per crit. So to outheal shadow refuge, it should have some good crit rating. With 11 marksmanship, you already have about 15,6-17% (let's say 16) crit rating (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit) the critical hit rating of 13 gives 13% Way of the master gives 31% 1-(0,84x0,87x0,69) = 49,6% crit rating

And with this build you're supposed to use a flatbow, which fires every 2 sec, which is reduced to 1,333 due to critical agility. Therefore: (1/1,3333)<--"Hit per sec" x 0,496 <--- "Crit Rating" = 0,37 crit per sec. 0,37 x 32 = 11.9 health per sec if ur attacking just one mob. So it can compete with Shadow refuge with 1 mob and easily outheals

In other words, even attacking only 2 guys, this build outheals shadow refuge build.

Pwnd.

Asssasssin Ssnake 10:44, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Soloing with Barrage might be kind of slow compared to MS/DB. Also, Critical Hit chances stack multiplicatively, so that 75% would only be about 60%. I also would suggest only having 13 in Critical Strikes, because anything more is a waste of health, so an attribute spread like: 10+1+2 in Critical Strike, 12 in Marksmanship and 8+1 in Shadow Arts would be better, unless you prefer more health gain over higher maximum health. -Mike 12:07, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

MS/DB ? :P But ur rite about atts, tho its just a matter of preferences. But cud u explain about muliplicatively thingy?

Moebius Strike+Death Blossom. About Critical Hit chances stacking, just check this link. I don't feel like explaining it myself. XD -Mike 12:59, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

My cool variant

Teh pwmzorz! --Super Igor *ninja!!* 13:05, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Why isn't Critical Agility on the main page build? That seems really dumb. Zuranthium 02:59, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Nevermind, I saw the reasoning above. But, in that case, why not Critical Defenses instead of Shadow Refuge? That seems like a really bad skill choice. Zuranthium

I probably wouldn't even use Favorable Winds; I'd take a Recurve Bow for Critical Agility, or just a plain Shorbow. Shadow Refuge can heal for 140 every 9 seconds (15.55555.... health per second) which is pretty good, but maybe we'd be better off just making it optional, because blocking isn't very important on a Barrager if you have a decent tank. I'd make Shadow Refuge and Favorable Winds optional, tbh. 6 DPS from bleeding from Sharpen Daggers>3 DPS from Favorable Winds. Plus, if you take out Shadow Refuge, you can ditch the Major Rune. ــмıкεнaшк 10:12, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

We should have two bars, one for Heroes and one for players, imo. ــмıкεнaшк 12:39, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

I don't think Critical Agility is really needed on a Barrager, doesn't it mess up the refire rate? The extra armour is nice but you can just take Critical Defenses instead and stop the hits from getting through instead. Selket Shadowdancer 12:50, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Ya, it does mess up the refire rate with a Flatbow or Shortbow, but you could always just take a Recurve Bow (instead of Favorable Winds) or Volley. ــмıкεнaшк 12:52, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Not really any point in taking volley, it's less damage and slightly slower than Barrage, unless you have some other agenda. I'm actually going to remove Favorable Winds and add it to variants and leave two slots open for variants, because imo there's plenty of them. At least until we can all come to agreeement as to what shold be in the main bar for maximum effect. Selket Shadowdancer 12:53, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

I'd rather take Sharpen Dagger over Favorable Winds, tbh. So, more optionals are good. Also, I meant Volley+Barrage spam, meaning you'll be hitting a more often (not much more, however, and that also depends how many foes you can hit at a time.) ــмıкεнaшк 12:57, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Main bar

Having been playing about with Barragers in higher level PvE lately I've come to using this most of the time.

<pvxbig> [build prof=assas/range critic=12+1+1 marksm=12][Way of the Master][Critical Eye][Barrage][Distracting Shot@0][Savage Shot][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][I Am The Strongest][Resurrection Signet][/build] </pvxbig>

And have found it to be pretty effective. Main bar should at least have EBSoH imo if not IATS aswell. Selket Shadowdancer 10:53, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Tbh, Barrage<Incendiary Arrows+Splinter Weapon+Ignite Arrows... ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   10:56, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Tbh, IA is still in wilderness survival. File:Ace piplup.jpgAce(LVPoW) 10:57, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

It's still 3 Arrows unaffected by preparation removal, regardless of level. And at 13+, it's near-constant Burning. --*Wah Wah Wah!* 10:59, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

12+, and still, you just spec 7+1 to expertise, 10+1+1 in wilderness, 8+1 marks, and the rest in Channeling - Or just bring a rit w/ you. ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   11:07, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

10/10/9/7 would work also. 10 Exp/Chann, 9 Marks, and 7 Exp. ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   11:08, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

I could have sworn this is an Assassin. Selket Shadowdancer 11:12, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, but this is shit now that you can use IA w/ Apply Poison. (I think) ~~     Frvwfr2     talk    contribs    admin   11:13, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

You are kidding right? You can hit upto 100's with this dependant on the target (on criticals of course), and normally dont hit any lower than 80's with all your buffs up, that makes it more efficient than a MS/DB spammer in terms of AoE DPS and from a safer range too, not to mention you hit more targets. IA and AP would be better on a Ranger with access to runes etc. Also this is still an improvement on the current bar (even if EBSoH is in variants) so lets just concentrate on this build and not on another build covered elsewhere ok? Selket Shadowdancer 11:17, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Here's some pics of me taking some shots at targets on IotN.

• [[1]]
• [[2]]
• [[3]]

Ive got some pics of hitting 100 armour too, which is around the 80 damage mark on a critical, I#ll throw them up in a minute when I eventually upload them because it's running real slow. :( EDIT: Here they are:

• [[4]]
• [[5]]

Selket Shadowdancer 11:40, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

note how

against a level 20 enemy:
ranger with 14 marksmanship (and 9 exp), using 1 skill slot and enough attribute points left for rank 10+1 in wilderness or whatever = 37 armor affected damage, 19 clean damage = total 56 damage on average
assassin with 12 marksmanship and 14 crit strikes, using 3 skill slots and barely any attribute points left = 38 armor affected damage, 17 clean damage = total 55 damage on average
Note how against higher level enemies, you have less crit chance, playing into the favor of the ranger even more. By the way, all of this was calculated considering enemy AL is 60, using a 15% damage mod and a customized weapon.
shitsux. –Ichigo724 11:50, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Oh right, and let's not forget how the ranger gets +30AL against elemental damage. –Ichigo724 11:53, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

I can agree that a Ranger has better attribute spread, but that doesn't make this a bad build tbh, if anything the fact that an Assassin can do comparable damage while spreading bleeding, and maintaining it's energy well, is pretty impressive, throw in some PvE skills for your utility (EBSoH affects all allies) and you're having a ball with your Assassin. Sure Rangers have a slight advantage, but that in no way makes an Assassin bad at Barraging.

Speaking of 15^50 and customization, my bow is +5 energy and uncustomized meaning the numbers would probably be a little higher on the above screens if different mods were taken. Selket Shadowdancer 12:11, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Also, I don't think your Critical Hit rate is reduced against higher-levelled foes, but increased against lower-levelled foes. =/ ــмıкεнaшк 14:53, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Crit chance goes down FAST against high level foes,tbh. --› Srs Beans R Srs 14:54, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Not only that, but a lvl 24 will have 74 armor if they are a monk. So if you are facing higher lvl targets, bonus damage > Critical hits.--The Gates Assassin 15:20, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Ok seriously why is this on PvX wiki. Bow criticals aren't amazing, especially vs high level enemies due to reduced critical hit chance and higher armor. Rangers have access to ANY other profession leading to things like weapon spells and conjures making it do WAY more damage. Bleeding that this can cause is useless in PvE, straight damage and deep wounds are the only things you need in damage builds. Anyone else think we should WELL/Revote/PvXignore and trash it?--The Gates Assassin 15:23, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Self-casting weapon spells is baed, and so are Conjures if you've got an Orders. I'm starting to use the Build:R/any PvE Incendiary Arrows Ranger, anyway. Have that with Ignite Arrows, EBSoH and Splinter Weapon and you'll probably match if not surpass Barrage's domage. This is what I'm working on, although it would probably be welled due to Build:Team_-_PvE_5_Physicals. =/ ــмıкεнaшк 15:26, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

If the issue is lower damage because of armor, then why do so many insist the Imbagon deals good DPS or use Aura of Holy Might instead of Orders? Also, the Bleeding from Sharpen Daggers is an additional 6 DPS (or 12 damage every time you would normally use Barrage), which means the Critical Barrager out-DPSs the regular Barrager. Critical Strikes is also better energy management than Expertise when hitting multiple foes/more often (6 energy average return when hitting two foes with the Critical Barrager, and you'd be breaking even with 13 Expertise+Zealous Bow). Critical Strikes also fuels energy skills Expertise wouldn't normally affect much better. ــмıкεнaшк 18:19, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Actually it's 5 energy per arrow that hits if you're using Critical Eye and Zealous Bow (3+1+1). Also I don't get all the qq about this builds damage when using EBSoH and IATS, I just completed Prophecies using this and in Abaddaons Mouth I was doing between 50 - 90 damage on lvl 24 monsters like Jade Armours etc, per Barrage, hardly shit for a critical barrager really. Add my support Rit with Splinter Weapon and I was laughing at the pretty high yellow numbers. Selket Shadowdancer 18:29, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Heh, I figured 6 energy return would be closer seeing as your Critical Hit rate is about 60% (so, one crit, one non-crit if you hit two foes). I still think Incendiary Arrows+Ignite Arrows+EBSoH>everything since the update, though. ــмıкεнaшк 18:45, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

i've been using that on a low-level acolyte jin--new pve char w/o all three necros yet :(. Incendiary + Ignite pwns face, ranger or sin. throw on splinter weapon if primary ranger and LOLWUT.--reason.decrystallized Shock is a costly interrupt. 18:59, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Probably wouldn't be worth it on a sin, however, because you'd have low Wilderness Survival and you'd have to compromise Critical Strikes. Also, User:St._Michael/sandbox#Big_Asplosionsway, tbh. ــмıкεнaшк 19:05, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

^is very nice.--reason.decrystallized Shock is a costly interrupt. 19:21, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

This was created during the Assassins-blowup phase of the game. I can see this being archived. However, this is a viable alternative to melee Assassins that have trouble staying alive for whatever reason. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 01:16, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

Agree with Rapta, Afflicted on Hard Mode anyone? Not to mention it's still also a very workable hero build for Zenmai. Selket Shadowdancer 05:40, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

it also has good damage on its own and hella energy for stuff like EBSoH and YMLaD or Finish Him. still viable, really. certainly still fun.--reason.decrystallized Shock is a costly interrupt. 01:24, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

"If the issue is lower damage because of armor, then why do so many insist the Imbagon deals good DPS or use Aura of Holy Might instead of Orders?"

Because, dear sir, AoHM makes you deal Holy Damage (everything is squishy) and adds a flat 30..50 damage. --› Srs Beans R Srs 05:23, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

If everything is squishy, what's wrong with using a Critical Barrager? =/ Also, the damage increased from Aura of Holy Might is affected by armor as it doesn't affect additional damage like Spirit's Strength or Strength of Honor (of course you'll still be doing huge domage with them). ــмıкεнaшк 09:46, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

i think that his point was that most of the higher armor targets have an additional boost against either physical (warriors) or elemental (rangers) and that nothing specifically resists holy.--reason.decrystallized Shock is a costly interrupt. 10:57, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

That's true, but it still doesn't increase your base damage by much in Hard Mode or against level 28s. XD ــмıкεнaшк 11:32, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

[[6]] against a level 30 Kuunavang. I would say thats respectable for a bow attack. Selket Shadowdancer 20:48, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

UR MONK HERO"S REBIRTH ISNT CANCELED OUT 0_0 PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 21:12, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

It's only NM. Selket Shadowdancer 07:49, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

So, if you're using this on yourself...

Anyone try using Signet of Infection with Sharpen Daggers?...'cause I'm having a great deal of fun with the whole "Critical Hits+Degen+Splinter Weapon from the Hero" concept right now...I'd post this with a skillbar and code and all that, but I'm not too experienced in typing fancy stuff, and would probably just embarrass myself.

That actually sounds like quite an interesting idea. You could easily spread 7 pips of degen across a mob, although the Splinter Weapon spikes might contradict the degen. 14 extra DPS is still good, nevertheless. Something on the lines of this, perhaps?

ــмıкεнaшк 21:28, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Something like that, although I generally run it with Way of Perfection and an Interrupt (YMLaD or Dshot/SShot), since the heroes usually carry enough in the way of resurrection skills and my Kurzick rank isn't all that high.

Hmmm.

So the other day I saw this and decided to give it a try, with a few alterations (not on the same computer as GW so I can't check to see exactly what I'm running at the moment). And...I don't know. It just seems very slow to me. I'm right now playing in GW:EN and it seems that for the most part, enemies just don't stay clustered together enough to make this really useful and, except for the Secret Lair of the Snowmen, so far it's been simply faster and more efficient to use dagger attacks. Minxy 15:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

You have to put a little work into balling up most enemies. Usually, just sending in a melee henchman/hero(/player if you have someone willing to) before attacking does the trick. Toraen 15:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In the end, scythes are the best. --- -- (contribs) (talk) 15:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In the end, spamming dw is best--Relyk 15:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I.e. Scythes. --- -- (contribs) (talk) 21:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't use a scythe on my Assassin :P Tried it again, though...combination of sending in a melee henchie and the fact that I have Gwen set up as a Me/Rt and thus have Splinter Weapon on me most of the time made it work much, much better. I leave off the Resurrection Signet and bring along Way of Perfection, Drunken Master, and Antidote Signet. Minxy 04:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Bow Types

Why is a flat- (very slow) and longbow (also awfully slow to interrupt things) recommended when a hornbow does 10% armor penetration by default and thus extra damage?! Because of the elite the shoot interval of the bow doesn't matter anyway, does it? --Birchwooda Treehug 21:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Flatbow has highest refire rate. Though w/o rtw it's kinda meh--Goldenstar 22:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty sure you can use shortbows in PvE; shouldn't be game-breaking. uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 22:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Too short range - I get too much attention then... unwanted one ;) I tried all bow types so far and recurve is my fave, followed by longbow. Flatbow is a no-go unless someone else brings FW (I won't waste a slot for it). With a hornbow you really can only spam barrage because for everything else it is too slow. Hm, it's much fun to play... at least it is something else for once. Shouldn't be in the archive. It does good damage (I added Keen Arrow, Crit. Agility, Sharpen Daggers and I am the strongest). Last time I tried bow assa was when Factions was released and it was inferior to a barrage ranger, but I see there came new skills for such a build with EotN. Way of the Master really does a nice change. --Birchwooda Treehug 11:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Why?

Why has this been archived? 98.19.129.246

What was the last time you seen anyone run this? :p --Carnivorous Cupcake 00:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Last week actually. It's not meta but it's still run. Selket Shadowdancer 07:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, the archive tag should go. If we were to archive every build that wasn't meta, then I'm certain that 75% of all 'Great' Builds would be archived. This build is probably better than most ranger primary barrage builds.--Grandmaster Chen 14:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol. uɐɟɐʞıd o^_^o¸«` 14:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol. Brandnew 14:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol.(I don't see what's funny but I'll join in anyway).--81.151.48.129 18:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol, just for the fuck of it. Still one of the best builds you can run on Zenmai. For that alone it should be unarchived, lol. Selket Shadowdancer 11:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I went sadface when sharpen daggers (but that doesn't seem to be on this build...?) was nerfed, haven't used this since (by the way, I've used this 10+ times in tahnaki temple, i literally cried last time i went in there using a non bloody barrage build) Dream Traveler Haru 23:14, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Remove that bloody tag ppl still run this--Tyrael-- 11:58, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

No, Bad ppl run this now. Especially after sharpen daggers was made dagger only.--Ikimono"Mutton Chop Man" 12:29, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Why the hell would you want to cause bleeding its the worst condition around...--Tyrael-- 13:17, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Why the hell would you run this in the first place. run Sharpen Daggers-Apply Poison-Incindary Arrows for spreading poison and bleeding quick. Which got nerfed. No reason to run A/R with a bow anymore.--Ikimono"Mutton Chop Man" 14:54, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

This is for PvE, spreading degen conditions in PvE is nearly pointless since they die so fast that degen doesn't even have enough time to have any significant effect, and if your enemies in PvE aren't dying fast enough, your team setup is bad anyway. Degen spam is very effective in GvG, HA, and TA but not PvE. This tag needs to be removed. --Lania Elderfire 17:09, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

This is for PvE, and PvE is about doing damage. This does a tiny fraction of the damage that other assassin builds do. The tiny advantage this has (being ranged) does nothing to make up for the huge lack of overall usefulness. Hell, this is outclassed by a ranger, even when rangers are arguably the worst physical profession, and assassins are at least the second best physical prof. The tag stays. -- Jaiwritesalot . . . 18:07, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how you can say it does a tiny fraction of the damage. Have you run this before with an IAS? Sure it does less damage than a critical scythe, and mobius sin but I would say the overall DPS is more like 50-80% of those other builds, depending on the situation. This is the only build that sins can be useful in areas where massive PBAOE makes sins and dervishes die very fast especially in hard mode, while wasting the healer's energy and rezes. Plus there is more to physical damage than just numbers on the screen, and utility (like interrupts), even in PvE is still very important. Also by your logic, most of the vetted builds should be archived if highest damage is all that matters. --Lania Elderfire 16:42, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Lol, IAS on barrage. No this is severely outclassed by crit scythe + daggers. Sins are the best physicals in game PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 16:52, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

IAS on barrage shortens the activation time of barrage. --Lania Elderfire 17:07, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Unless you are using a hornbow, IAS is a waste due to your character not gettinga perfect reload, causing extra animation which slows down the barraging process PWNAGEMUFFIN crabs 17:16, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

this

should be brought out of archive. discuss. - AthrunFeya - 21:01, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

I still use it on sin heroes if I have some MoP, OoP, or Barbs going on.... Karate Jesus 21:05, 20 January 2010

Just unarchive it then lolz--TahiriVeila 21:27, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't use it for heroes; it doesn't offer any more than a regular Barrage Ranger with an open secondary or a P/R ("GftE!", "Fall Back!", "Stand Your Ground!"). Crits also do poo against high-armored monsters. However, because it's a Sin primary, calling it inferior to other Barragers is irrelevant; you can only compare it to other Sin primaries, and this is a different style of play. So, imo, drop the Hero tag, and go with something like:

or

"By Ural's Hammer!" could be worth bringing, and D-Shot might not be. If you don't bring Heroes with OoP and Splinter Weapon (and MoP), it won't be worth running. Just don't expect this to land in Great. ــѕт.мıкε 22:15, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Ressed it.

I'm crit-mad, but what would you expect from someone with an assassin main? =\

Anyways, I've removed the huge list of (mostly redundant) optionals and put it in trial.--DigitalFear 19:36, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

This really isn't very good. Use a scythe ffs. Life Guardian 19:36, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Dont unarchive things without conscent from the admins dude, archive it back and adress your issue on the admin noticeboard, this is pure vandalism --(Talk) 19:42, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not trying to vandalize but ehh I'll archive it again.--DigitalFear 19:46, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't really vandalism....but really, crit barrage is inferior to other options. Life Guardian 19:54, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not Vandalism; it's a good faith edit. This definitely isn't worth running on a Hero, but it may be okay for Players who want to stick ranged (Survivor) and/or join B/P groups. This can also afford to use some more expensive skills, like EBSoH and "FH!", than Ranger primaries can (because Expertise not reducing their costs), although Rangers can go R/W and take "SY!", while this can't. It's like Rangers and Paragons running Daggers or Scythes; it may not be more "effective" than their primary weapons, but it's different, so it's difficult to objectively compare them. ــѕт.мıкε 20:01, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

it's not too difficult to compare - here we're looking at builds for general pve where rerolling tends not to be an option (because you want x char to get through titles or storylines) to just compare against other sin builds.. - AthrunFeya 20:54, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm also saying it's hard to compare to other sin builds. You submitted the P/D and P/A builds, which are viable alternatives to the Imbagon, because they offer different styles of play. It's not impossible to compare this to other sin builds; generally, you sacrifice damage potential to be ranged and relying on balled foes, but in being ranged, you don't have to run from one target to the next, so your DPS, in practice, could be higher. ــѕт.мıкε 21:08, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

the latter is basically never the case though. Pure offensive builds are pure offensive builds, regardless of whether you throw a bow or pair of daggers on your char. - AthrunFeya 21:22, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'd probably only run this, if I wanted EBSoH on my Sin. >.> ــѕт.мıкε 21:25, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

the only place i'd ever run over real sin builds is in snowmans lair - AthrunFeya 21:27, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

There you go: Critical Barrage Snowman Farmer. XD ــѕт.мıкε 21:41, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Can I make it? :p--DigitalFear 22:03, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

What about the Battle for Lion's Arch? >.< Dok 04:09, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Crits in HM Zzz. And Tyrael, users can unarchive anything they want. They don't need to consult admins. Karate Jesus 02:10, 11 July 2010